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vivien
03-15-2007, 03:33 PM
queen of nerdsville, here, when it comes to pc's. i really need some help. i want to give a friend of mine my old, old (did i mention, ancient) pc as she doesn't have the $$$ to buy one. in doing so, i would really like to give her one that's more updated, but not sure if it can be done and how i do it? here's some information on the pc (not sure what else is needed):
Sony VAIO PCV-130/PCV-150/PCV-200
Pentium II Pro
233 Mhz
640k System RAM
127m Extended RAM
512k Cache
HD = Quantum Fireball ST 4.3a
Total memory (RAM?) 128mb
4 Gb harddrive
FAT32
Windows 95
Monitor Sony CPD-100vs (i think this is SVGA rather than VGA?; it's set on 16bit 800x600)

there's a Sony recovery disk, but i don't think i want to use that if i'm trying to load winxp, right? there might be other programs on it that i think she can live without, but would it also have needed drivers??

does my old system look like it can handle winxp okay? I was thinking to reformat to get rid of everything. i read something about fdisk and boot disk. the boot disk i'd be creating would be win95 and then once booted, then load winxp??

am i outta my mind. anyway, help...guidance? much appreciated.
vivien:o

Fruss Tray Ted
03-15-2007, 03:40 PM
I'm sorry but that system would not handle XP well at all. You'd be much better off if you could put 98SE, a good A/V and firewall.

SufferWell1396
03-15-2007, 04:39 PM
I disagree. I had Win XP installed on a PII 400 with 128MB ram and it worked just fine. I have even installed XP on a P 166 with 64MB ram :eek:

If you want to you can, but i would do one thing if i was going to upgrade. Upgrade the HDD... That Fireball is what put Quantum out of the hard drive bisness... Get a 20 gig or something. That drive WILL hold Win XP but you wont be able to do much as it would take up to 1.5 to 2 gigs on the drive...

vivien
03-15-2007, 04:41 PM
oh, darn. when i reseached xp requirements, it "looked" like i had the minimal needed, so i was hoping that i could get away with some minor upgrades (like RAM, etc.). guess i'll talk to friend about 98se and go from there. thanks for such a quick response..i really appreciate it.
viv

vivien
03-15-2007, 04:45 PM
whoops! i didn't see SW's response til after i posted. sooo, you think is might work okay if hdd replaced...hmmmm, if i buy an 80g hdd, and this doesn't work, i can always use the hdd in another. might be a great? learning experience for me (i say this before i end up ripping my hair out).
thanks! just a hint of hope, spurs me on....
viv

david eaton
03-15-2007, 05:31 PM
Before fitting a new hard drive, go to the Crucial Website, and check how much RAM that system can take. Unless you can get at least 512 MB, while XP can be installed, it will be a slow as a snail in molasses. If however, you go with the Win98SE suggestion, don't go above that amount, as the Win9x series have problems

Paul Komski
03-15-2007, 07:01 PM
I too think that you wont have much fun with WinXP particularly once you start to run a few apps, antivirus etc. If you want an NT OS on that PC I would go for Win2K, which would function about as sprightly on 128mb RAM as WinXP would on 512. Otherwise go for Win98se (still a great OS but a bit of a bug-bear when it comes to USB support since USB devices are so widespread these days).

As for the Hard Drive I would stay with that one inside and add an external if extra storage space is needed. You get very little bang for buck with small drives nowadays. It's unlikely that the BIOS will reach any threshold under 80gig but you never know and an external drive (with its own firmware that supports large drives) would obviate that possibility into the bargain. A cheap USB2 PCI card (hopefully it has PCI slots) might be a very good investment if there are no USB ports on the PC.

SufferWell1396
03-15-2007, 07:30 PM
Actually, if USB support is what your looking for, i would recommend Windows Me over 98SE. You dont have to hastle with drivers and what not if a device is UPnP in Win Me. Windows 2000 would be alright on that computer, if what your looking for is an NT based OS. But if you dont want to use XP, i would recommend Windows Millennium for its great support for USB as compared to 98SE

Fruss Tray Ted
03-15-2007, 08:37 PM
might be a great? learning experience

Learning experience = LIFE

Then you die :eek:

Sure,, SFW1396 says XP, or even ME, will 'work'. XP has been known to 'work' at 7mhz with I forget some miniscule amount of RAM!

The question here is:
Will this be a good first 'learning' experience for your 'friend'? Whether young or old, the thing you don't want to do is turn someone 'off' to an experience. In this case, computers in general.

With the advent of Streaming Media, graphics demanding games, the 'New and Improved' Adobe' or Flash (:rolleyes: ), so on and so forth, ad-nauseum, since Windows 95, it is my opinion that introducing your friend to computers with that system will lag, even if in a fast network.

I am currently upgrading 'Grandparents first' to 'Grandparents second'. This is from a Pentium2 233mhz with 198megs RAM (on dial-up) to an AMD 850mhz with 348megs RAM (on networked broadband). The reason? They say it's slow, for one.

In a nutshell,
Don't just give them something that works, give them something that they can enjoy. If you give them a P233 with 128m on a dial-up connection account that barely gets acceptable up and download speeds, you will more likely generate another person who does not want pc's at all in their life.

98SE with a small footprint A/V and likewise firewall is about where I draw the line between safety and speed with minimal hardware. ...for Windows environments.

You can buy a legit COA for 98SE for around $30. It does not come with a cd, you need to use someone else's, then enter the proper keycode that you OWN.

ME, with all it's advances over 98 just slows it down unless you tweak it. I don't leave this to beginners, especially elder ones.

SufferWell1396
03-15-2007, 09:27 PM
eh, i have a laptop with a PII 266 and 160MB RAM and it runs XP just fine, it takes a while to start, but when it does its alright. It has enough power to run WMP11, Firefox, and AIM and thats normally all i need.

HomeSA
03-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Let's not forget device driver availability for any type of OS upgrade.

vivien;
I collect old / obsolete computers and experiment with them for self-education. I have had many go through my hands with similar spec to what you listed. While in theory XP may kind of limp/crawl on that hardware, I would draw the line with 98SE as the most suitable OS for that hardware. It really depends on what your friend wants to use the computer for. For very basic Internet and productivity use, 98SE will do, along what others above suggested for A/V, firewall etc. If the intented use is for multimedia, I am afraid your friend will be disappointed. By the time you spend money on RAM, HD, optical drive and what not, you will still end up with very obsolete machine that nobody will buy.

If you insist going the XP route, at least run the XP Readiness Analyzer from MS to make sure the hardware is compatible.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/p...g/advisor.mspx

vivien
03-16-2007, 02:35 AM
wow! what great food for thoughts and more research to do. it's very true that i don't want to "turn her off" on computers and so i don't want to give her something that she'll be strumming her fingers waiting for pc response. she first mentioned just using the pc to learn EXCEL and send emails, but i see now that i really need to sit down with her and find out ALL that SHE envisions doing. i looked at 80g hdd on egghead and they start at $40, which doesn't sound all that much to me, but now i realize i don't know what she can afford to output. thanks so much for all your replies...this definitely gives me lots of info to pass on to her! still excited about doing something with the old pc rather than just tossing it...hope to help her out in the long run, too!
thanks again, viv

Paul Komski
03-16-2007, 05:50 AM
One other bit of "food for thought" if you are prepared to do a bit of DIY (lots of help here if that takes your fancy) is to consider a BareBones Computer (http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/CategoryIntelligence.asp?Subcategory=3) with a few newegg models (http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=3&name=Barebone-Computers) for starters. You would need to buy a CPU+HeatSink and some RAM but at the most minimal you could re-use just about all the other components from your current PC. You would have practically a state of the art PC and if you added a new hard drive loads of storage capacity.

vivien
03-16-2007, 12:26 PM
oh, paul...actually i'd would love to build a pc because i've never done something like that i think it would help me learn how things go together and run. i've perused the section in here on building one already. i'm thinking it might cost a couple hundred $$?? not sure she'd be able to pull out that kinda cash, but i'm thinking maybe i can barter with her/her husband. seeing them this weekend, so i might have more questions come monday. i have another pc with problems, but it won't even power up (yes, it's plugged in..ha), so i didn't even think to consider that one since the Sony, at least, is running. can i ask is there anyway to "test" a pc to see why it's not powering up or do i need to start replacing things....hey!! i just thought of something...can i use the hdd from the pc that won't power up for the Sony??
gosh, my mind is racing and i know not where!

SufferWell1396
03-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Ofcorse you can! But if the computer that isnt working out is faster you might just want to get that thing up and running insted of that Sony. it just takes a few seconds to pop it in and attach the ATA cable. start up the compy and your off! Im so used to it it takes me a few seconds just to pop it in and just start up the computer.

Hard Drive Installation Guide (http://www.pcmech.com/show/harddrive/43/)

That thing seems a little too in depth, for example, i doubt you will need the hard drive manual...

thats not all you can do, you can take the RAM out of the PC that isnt working and shoot it into the one that is to make it lots faster too!
you can add the CD/DVD drives also!

So find the specs on the PC that isnt powering up, and see which of the 2 is faster, and tell us back here, if the one that isnt working is faster, we will help you get that thing working again

vivien
03-16-2007, 05:34 PM
SW...the pc that is not running is faster because it had winxp pro loaded on it. okay, okay...(i gotta calm myself down here). let me go research on the connecting the ATA cable because i know NOT what that is nor where to put it. my friend called back and said she just wants to 'play' around with the pc and she might have win98...soo, i'm-a-thinkin, i'll load win98 on the sony for her and get this other one up & running for me!!! it's been away in my closet for years because i just didn't know what to do without spending lots of money. okay...going to look up the ATA cable thing. thanks!! i'm sure i'll get back in a few...
viv

SufferWell1396
03-16-2007, 05:49 PM
Nonono Is it faster Hardware Wise, not OS wise i mean

Sylvander
03-16-2007, 05:55 PM
Ata = Ide

Ata-2= Eide

Should all be capitals. Why are they changed to lower case?

vivien
03-16-2007, 06:33 PM
oooooh..uh....i don't remember what's in it. a friend (since moved away) built it for me like 5 years ago (around when winxp came out?). all the emails he sent me about the pc is, unfortunately, on that pc. can i tell by opening it up? eeek...haven't done THAT. okay, so i'll open 'er up..what do i look for to tell you what it is?
thanks, SW! really, really do appreciate the help. don't give up on me!
viv

vivien
03-16-2007, 06:59 PM
i realize i've taken you off to another pc already, but i'm still waiting for my friend to get back to me about the win98 issue. soooo, as far as the unit that's been tucked away in my closet...i've opened the case (that was a lesson, 4sure). i see lots of stuff, but nothing that says what it is. it's got 3 fans (1 in front, 1 in back and 1 on card (motherboard?). i THINK i've located the harddrive, but i'd have to unscrew and pull it out to see the label..would that tell me something? anyway, about that ATA cable you mentioned...could i try that to see if i can power this up?
viv

SufferWell1396
03-16-2007, 07:37 PM
Hard Drive (http://www.ptdd.com/datarecovery/images/hard-drive2.jpg)

That is what a hard drive looks like, though it wont have the same labels as that one chances are, all new ones resemble that.

ATA Cable (http://www.logicsupply.com/images/ata_cable.jpg)

Thats what an ATA cable looks like, those connect to the hard drives and the motherboard.

RAM (http://bestcomputerusa.com/catalog/images/pc13302.jpg)

That is what system RAM looks like, though it comes in different variations though.

You stick one end of the ATA cable into the hard drive, the other into the motherboard. RAM just goes into little slots

Motherboard Diagram (http://www.just2good.co.uk/images/jpg/mboard.jpg)

That shows you what is on a motherboard, by labeling the parts.

fyi ATA is also known as IDE and not all motherboards look the same, all processors have different sockets and slots. for more info Go Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPU_Socket)

vivien
03-16-2007, 08:03 PM
sw-thank you so much for the links..helped! here's what i found so far:
hdd - Western Digital Caviar, Enhanced IDE HD, 40Gb.
found a long chip..memory? printed on it is: 256mg DDR 266Mhz; it's from crucial technology.
i can't see the CPU because of the fan on top, but printed is: Thermaltake Volcano 6 cu+. i went to Thermaltake and saw AMD Athlon which looks familiar...i'm thinking that's my pc.
i found the ATA cable...but, what am i suppose to do with it to start this thing?
oh, and the power supply shows: ATX-300W P4-12V Switching Power Supply from JGE (not sure if that helps at all).
so then, this system has a little more Mhz, more RAM, bigger HDD.
i think, my friend said this was a AMD Athlon clocked to 450??? not sure.
okay...so i'm ready to start er up, right???
viv
this is better than tv!!

SufferWell1396
03-16-2007, 08:44 PM
i dont think the Athlon clocked that low, yes that computer is ALOT better than what you are giving your friend, and this is the one that isnt starting up correct? Does it start and fans spin but no responce, or does it just not turn on at all?

vivien
03-17-2007, 01:39 PM
correct...this is the one that doesn't start up. no fan, no noise, no lights..zip.
i've played with the rocker-type switch on the back (off, on, off, on, etc.). held the front button in over 30 sec. no life at all. in research, found that the front button usually flips a lever inside to power on pc, but it's hard to see in the box..didn't see a flip switch. also, to power up with case off and see if there is a LED light on the mobo (woo-hoo, new term 4me), but i don't know where to look for the LED light and the hdd is still out, so i haven't done that yet. i do see the ATA cable going from hdd to mobo. there's separate ribbon-type cables for the floppy & 2 disc drives.
i'm still not getting in my mind..how the ATA cable start works. i looked at all the links you sent (most is far above my knowledge base). am i going to use the working pc to power this one up??
viv

vivien
03-17-2007, 02:44 PM
i reread thru all the posts and wanted to get back with those that had input for me.
Fruss Tray Ted: i found out that friend would be using dialup to the internet. so, if i go with Sony pc, then i'll bump the mem up from 128 as you suggested. she may have win98 to load, but if not, then i'll look into the 98se you mentioned. i really think your words on giving her a system that won't turn her off from the pc world is upfront in consideration.
Paul Komski: i checked and the Sony has 2 usb ports. i didn't think to ask her what she would be using usb with (camera, etc.). i know the printer i'm giving her uses a multipin connector on back of pc. also, i didn't think about the external hdd and i like that idea.
Home SA: she didn't mention other multimedia usage, but i need to ask her if she is thinking about photoshop type stuff..i think she has a digital camera. and, i think i will use the MSAdvisor once the pc is up & running just to see.
David Eaton: it was interesting you told me to go to crucial website and that's exactly where i found information on the existing RAM stick on the pc that's not currently running (AMD athlon). i will research that site to see about more RAM for the sony.
Sylvander: i don't yet understand ATA/IDE stuff. i've read, but i'm one of those people that will probably have to read it over & over before it sinks in..
SW: i am trying to follow everything you're mentioning, please bear with me if i don't get it right off..i'm really being agressive in this area of naivety, so that i don't take up too much of everyone's time.
thank you all so much...i'm so glad to be a member of this site!
viv

vivien
03-17-2007, 02:54 PM
SW...i finally figured out how to get the front cover off this mini-tower (or was that midi-tower?)...funny how a little glass of wine works wonders for brain power. found there is no toggle behind the front switch...there's a small connector with wires running to the mobo. eeek, a cable came out of the hdd when i was trying to put it back into the bay, i'm hoping i got it back to where it was suppose to go. i went online and it looked like something called "Serial ATA interface connector". just wanted to let you know incase something doesn't work and it might be that. i'm thinking about starting it up without case and see if there's some kind of LED, but if there's no power then how can an LED be lit? gosh, it just feels like i'm getting more stupid.
viv

Fruss Tray Ted
03-17-2007, 03:01 PM
i think she has a digital camera
Hopefully you can get 98SE working and not first edition of 98 because usb support is better with SE

Hopefully you get that 'closet' pc back up and running. It's as good as what I use imo and I have no complaints. Well just one, the color of Sufferwell's hair but that's besides the point... ;)

vivien
03-17-2007, 05:13 PM
okay, i researched win98 vs win98se and everything i've run across says the win98 is more stable than win98se. win98se does have internet connection sharing, but it sounds like my friend doesn't need that as she has her own dialup connection via separate line.
also, i checked crucial.com and found that i can put as much as 384mb RAM into the Sony (tho, i'm thinking one more stick of 128 would do it for a total of 256mb???)
talked to her husband and he's willing to purchase more memory, external hdd and win98...so, is there anything else i might want to do for the Sony upgrade? oh, the other thing...it does have a CD-ROM, but does that mean she can NOT write to cd's..is this a read-only drive?
i'm still thinking to give her the pc that doesn't even start up...if you all can help me get it going. thanks again..i'm still plugging along!
viv

Sylvander
03-17-2007, 05:25 PM
I moved from Win98...
To Win98SE [small but vital improvements (USB), no losses. No noticeable change in stability]
To win2000Pro [nice touches added, some losses].

I'd perhaps go back to 98SE, except for the drop of support [my ISP dropped support, so did AVG I think].
Definitely wouldn't go back to Win98 when I could have Win98SE.

Paul Komski
03-17-2007, 05:56 PM
There are so many USB peripherals these days that not installing SE would be a major mistake IMHO. Win98 (first or second edition) was a stable OS - period. There's no good reason to stay with first edition if you have the choice. Any modern USB Pen Drives, Cameras, Printers, Scanners, external Hard Drives or CDs/DVDs and more will all be ouside the remit of first edition. If anything go the next jump and install WinME or 2K which both provide native support. Even with Win98se you will need to install specific drivers for all the above devices.

Fruss Tray Ted
03-17-2007, 09:21 PM
All good advice above. There's nothing I'm disagreeing with above. ESPECIALLY mine! :p

I don't know where you heard 98 is better than 98SE but just put that behind you. Actually W95 B and C versions had usb support but it wasn't until Windows ME that the user did not need to worry about going back to Cab files for this and that as some new device was introduced or installed into or upon the system.

Personally, if I have an older system I use either 98SE or ME. Anything beyond that gets XP. Vista? Yeah right! :rolleyes: AFAIC Vista makes ME look to be a hero compared to the fiasco's I expect to see soon. Virii, leaks, inconveniences, lack of backwards compatibility..blah blah........... Ok. I'll stop for now.

HomeSA
03-17-2007, 09:38 PM
I thought only 95 C had usb support.:confused:

Paul Komski
03-17-2007, 10:08 PM
The USB support in 95 is absent or sketchy in all versions. There is some native support in Win95 4.03.1212-1214 (4.00.950B) and above (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q253756/). USB drivers can be installed on both Win95 B and C to embellish the sketchy support already in existence. Heck you can even add USB drivers to DOS to get some USB support but that also is not reliable.

vivien
03-18-2007, 02:35 PM
SW had written:
Ofcorse you can! But if the computer that isnt working out is faster you might just want to get that thing up and running insted of that Sony. it just takes a few seconds to pop it in and attach the ATA cable. start up the compy and your off! Im so used to it it takes me a few seconds just to pop it in and just start up the computer.
so, SW, were you saying that i should replace the ATA cable to get the pc up & running?? i'm not seeing the full pic here because i don't understand why that would power the pc up..
so (anyone)..should i start by replacing the power supply (on the AMD Athlon pc)??
help.
viv

vivien
03-18-2007, 02:46 PM
going back to the Sony then..i went to the crucial site and it looks like i can put in another 128mb stick of mem (it will take 384mb). also found that win98se isn't expensive (duh) and an external hdd isn't too bad either. i was thinking internal hdd, but then i read stuff about BIOS upgrade, etc. and i'm not confident enough to go upgrading lots of stuff all at once. i think i'll go this route as you all suggested so i can give the Sony to someone else...if you can help me get the Athlon up & running.
question: could i hook the Athlon up with the Sony power supply to see if that's the problem or would i blow something?
viv

kiosk
03-18-2007, 03:19 PM
Do not bother with a 40 GB hard drive, because your system almost certainly has a BIOS bug which would cause the BIOS to hang when autodetecting and accessing drives larger than 32 GB.

vivien
03-18-2007, 03:42 PM
thank you, kiosk. so, since the c:drive is 2gb, i could look for a 30gb internal hdd? now, if i went with external hdd, then i could go higher than 32gb? or will that still affect BIOS?
viv

SufferWell1396
03-18-2007, 04:54 PM
Sorry about that, i went away for a while

How To Hook Up A Hard Drive (http://www.wikihow.com/Hook-up-a-Hard-Drive)

One thing that could be wrong with that PC that isnt working is its PSU (Power Supply Unit). It could be broken and is the most common cause for a PC not to be functional. Doing a swap is risky if you dont know what your doing... if your willing to put up 80 dollars to buy a new PSU you could try to swap them.

vivien
03-18-2007, 06:39 PM
i figured you MUST have another life, so i was just waiting & listening to some tunes.....okay, SW, i'll research how to replace the PSU. think i got the hdd cables back where they were..sheesh. prob be next week b4 i can fire it up...thanks again.
viv

SufferWell1396
03-18-2007, 06:59 PM
oh and if you get the BIOS flashed to its current version it should have a huge hard drive limit, one that i dont know of, even my AST Adventure can hold drives bigger than a 160 gig and its only a P166 with 64MB RAM!:eek:

HomeSA
03-19-2007, 08:52 AM
Hi vivien

You mixed troubleshooting 2 PCs in one thread which gets confusing to folks trying to help.

If you want to look into reviving the newer PC which does not work, I suggest starting a new thread. As suggested, the spec of the newer one is much much better than the working WIN95 PC and is worth trying to get it to work and spend the money towards replacing the parts that are broken in that one, than on the WIN95 machine. I understand that one gravitates toward the machine that turns on, rather than the one that sits like a brick, but trust me, at the end, your friend will be much happier with the newer one.

Meanwhile, look into Sylvander's diagnostic flow charts that walk you through the troubleshooting steps.

http://www.erniek.eclipse.co.uk/downloads/sylvanderdiags.zip

vivien
03-19-2007, 09:54 PM
HELP! geezo-peezo! ok, got the PSU (from the AMD Athlon pc) unscrewed thinking to take it to comp store & get a new one...but, there's so many cables running here and there. i thot i should label where each one goes, cause there's no way i'd be able to figure it out. but, my question is (before i unhook all the cables)...will the new PSU then have all the same cables so it'll be somewhat less confusing when i have to put it all back together?
everything i read said removal of PSU is super easy...i guess it's getting it back in that's the hard part! ;-]
viv

vivien
03-19-2007, 09:58 PM
whoops! HomeSA..i posted the above "HELP" before i saw your instruction about starting a new thread. sorry. i've really taken to heart Fruss Tray Ted and your suggestion about giving friend this pc rather than Sony, so i guess, i put the Sony on the back burner for now and am concentrating on the AMD. should i go ahead and post my last call for help on a new thread then?
viv

vivien
03-19-2007, 10:10 PM
HomeSA: i looked at the Anderdiags.zip file and traced it to "Faulty PSU fan". soooo, since the fan & PSU are one unit, that's the 1st thing i'm trying to replace (i hope nothing else got fried when it went out).
viv

SufferWell1396
03-19-2007, 11:05 PM
Nah, not anymore, shooting in a PSU is easy for me and after you get the hang of it, there shouldnt be any troubles.

If you buy a compatible PSU there shouldnt be any problems, you shouldnt have to label anything because all the connectors that go to the hdd and cd drives are all compatible, there is a floppy connector, it is the smallest one, its easy to reconize. And the biggie is the ATX connector that goes to the mobo to power it up, so there should be no reason to label anything, go get a new PSU and see if that Athlon PC will fire up! :)

vivien
03-19-2007, 11:09 PM
okay, SW. here goes...

HomeSA
03-19-2007, 11:26 PM
Got a digital camera? Take pictures. Post one or two.

HomeSA
03-20-2007, 12:24 AM
Below some reference material with pictures to help you out.

http://compreviews.about.com/od/tutorials/ss/DIYPSU.htm

http://www.geeks.com/techtips/2006/techtips-20apr06.htm

http://support.gateway.com/support/manlib/cmponts/Process/8508750/08750c01.htm

http://www.systemax.co.uk/contentModules/htm/powersupplies/install-power-supply.htm

http://www.fonerbooks.com/r_power.htm

http://www.build-your-own-computer-tips.com/install-a-power-supply.html

Sylvander
03-20-2007, 05:28 AM
I'm having a hard time following this thread, but...

AMD ATHLON PC
This seems "dead" yes?
And you are in the process of replacing the PSU?
I have a horrible feeling there may be nothing wrong with the PSU.
You could have a faulty on-switch [I never got around to including that in the flowcharts], and to test that possibility you should short the pins on the mobo that the switch connects to.
On my flowcharts [Sylvanderdiags.zip hosted for me by ErnieK], DF2: SYSTEM...
"Does fan run?" refers to the PSU fan, which might be an indicator of no PSU output if not running [does the PSU have power input?], or else the fan itself is faulty.
What I didn't include is that the on-switch might be faulty.

Note the important next step is to try a bare-bones-boot by disconnecting all non-essential hardware, leaving only...
PSU, mobo, CPU+heatsink+fan, internal speaker.
If you get warning beeps about the failure of the 1st RAM test, you could then add...
Video card.
You should still get RAM warning beeps, and then add...
One stick of RAM in the 1st RAM slot.
You can then [switch off the PC and] add other hardware back one item at a time.

If the PSU voltages are OK [with a bare-bones hardware setup], but the PC still appears "dead", then the mobo isn't telling the PSU to go to full power-up.
That's where note 1 comes in.
The 1st link shows how to short the green and any black wire to artificially force the PSU to go to full power [a risky step].
If that works, then there's a fault in the mobo that the shorting wire with its switch can overcome.

HomeSA
03-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Sylvander, great step-by-step, as usual.

vivien
03-20-2007, 08:03 PM
Sylvander: yeah, HomeSA said i should have changed threads and now i'm hesitant to only because all the background stuff would be in this thread, but if it helps to open a new one, then i will. To answer you, i think i have an AMD Anthlon (just from memory). yes, it is completely dead. and, i've just purchased a new PSU.
new PSU: Antec EarthWatts 380W, ATX12V V2.0, 80 plus certified, 80mm low noise fan, Model EA-380. there's a bunch of ratings on pkg for +3.3V (20A), +5V (20A) and +12v (17A)..i still don't fully comprehend those, but there they are. the salesman said i could return the PSU, so that's why i went ahead and got it.

I have a horrible feeling there may be nothing wrong with the PSU.
You could have a faulty on-switch [I never got around to including that in the flowcharts], and to test that possibility you should short the pins on the mobo that the switch connects to.
are you talking about the on-switch located on the PSU itself or the one on the front of the case?

"Does fan run?" refers to the PSU fan, which might be an indicator of no PSU output if not running [does the PSU have power input?], or else the fan itself is faulty.
fan does not run...nothing comes on anywhere. tried diff cables from power surge (wall) to PSU, nothing. check reseating of cables...nothing.
i'm really not comfortable with "shorting" wires, but i think i'm brave enuff to try the bare bones bootup. i'll try that before i unwrap my brandnew, beautiful PSU. :-)
thanks too much, viv (and the thread keeps going...would this be approp time to start new one?)

SufferWell1396
03-20-2007, 09:54 PM
nah the thread goes on until the problem is solved normally.

Bare Bones doesnt really put you at much risk for electrocution, ive done 5 bare bones boots and ive never had one shock

Paul Komski
03-20-2007, 10:13 PM
Sylvander is, I am sure, referring to the front on/off switch because it is that which connects to two pins on the front panel header on the motherboard; the same two pins he suggested shorting as a test. Briefly shorting the pins does the same thing as pressing the front on/off button and the short flow of electricity this generates feeds-back to the PSU to power-on the system. If the button is kept pressed-in (or otherwise shorted for a period) it will force a shut-down.

As long as you don't open a PSU (and don't ever open a PSU) then there should be no voltage greater than 12V coming out of the PSU to the computer's internals. That is the same voltage as a car battery and is not a dangerous voltage to touch with your skin. As long as the mains supply has an earth then it too should be safe from any short circuit involving the mains a/c supply.

vivien
03-20-2007, 11:59 PM
hmmm. i'm still not getting HOW to physically short the on switch. went back and reread everything, so maybe i'm just resembling that old cliche of 'being blonde'. i'll google to see what i find. in the meantime, i've unconnected everything except PSU, mobo, CPU (HSF), and internal speakers; plugged in AC to PSU, pushed ON and nothing. dead. i think i'll have the PSU tested before i do anything else. if it's dead and i have to replace PSU..is the one i purchased (see specs above) okay then?
thank you all for still 'holding my hand' through this...i'm a-gettin frustrated at being so kermit (green). :-(
viv

Sylvander
03-21-2007, 04:14 AM
"still not getting HOW to physically short the on switch"
The usual recommended method is to momentarily place the tip of a screwdriver across the two pins on the mobo after disconnecting the tiny plug that leads back to the switch.

HomeSA
03-21-2007, 09:48 AM
...i'm a-gettin frustrated at being so kermit (green). :-(
viv

Don't despair. We all have been through this at one point or another. Walk away for a day and then come back to it. You are doing great for a kermit

vivien
03-21-2007, 12:11 PM
r-r-r-r-right on :D
sorry this will seem so elementary here, but i wanna make sure i do this correctly. i followed the small ribbon cable from the front of case to mobo. it breaks into separate wires leading to 4 small connectors each labeled: Power SW, HDD led, Reset SW, Speakers. Reset switch? (i think i just caught flies in my open mouth)? told you i was green. Those are all plugged in (as said to mobo), then i have PSU 20pin plugged into mobo, CPU/HSF plugged into mobo, small cable/connector running from CD drive into mobo at CDIN1. the RAM is in (one card in long slot), a NIC card, card with ribbon cable (think it went to CD1 unit) and last card i think is for monitor.
whew..okay, so with those items connected..can i plug in PSU and try reset switch first (duh), if no power, then i remove the Power SW connect from mobo, place a screwdriver across those 2 pins for a moment and see what happens. right?
viv

HomeSA
03-21-2007, 01:03 PM
....can i plug in PSU and try reset switch first.... viv

I think you mean power switch, not reset switch


.... if no power, then i remove the Power SW connect from mobo, place a screwdriver across those 2 pins for a moment and see what happens. right?
viv

right

Sylvander
03-21-2007, 01:03 PM
"can i plug in PSU and try reset switch first"
I can't see any point in using this when the PC isn't powered up, so there's nothing to reset.

"i remove the Power SW connect from mobo, place a screwdriver across those 2 pins for a moment and see what happens. right?"
Right.
From where I sit on the other side of planet Earth from you and this PC, that seems to me to be the right thing to do.
I'm assuming Power SW = Power Switch. :)

You could try it with all those extra hardware items connected, but if that doesn't work you need to strip the hardware back to the bare minimum listed previously.

vivien
03-21-2007, 04:50 PM
welp, i got nothing shorting the Power SW. called Fry's Elec. & they were going to charge me $40 to test old PSU. good grief. took everything to BestBuy & Geek Squad guy said he'd do the test no charge. cool beans. welp, old PSU had no juice..definitely dead. he put in the new PSU & we got power, but nothing on monitor. into BIOS, but only a few seconds, then nothing. he said he's pretty sure the mobo is out & he doesn't know what else (said hdd prob okay). said system would cost more to replace parts than buy another one. back home with sour dispostion of putting you all through so much of this..thank you, thank you, thank you and i do apologize.
:( how embarrasing :o
they have a cradle that i can buy to drop my hdd into and hopefully, at least, salvage data.
my only option now is to upgrade Sony per your suggestions (so, bright side...all is not lost) and give that to my friend, temporarily.
i was s'prized how adrenaline can keep you from eating and sleeping for 3 days...i don't know how you all do it. but, i'm am so grateful to you all.
if i have ?? on the Sony, i'll post a new thread...just promise you won't shudder when you see my name :)
viv

Fruss Tray Ted
03-21-2007, 06:32 PM
You don't need an external case to recover the contents of the drive in the AMD pc. The guy at fry's is a salesman. :rolleyes:

You've crossed one hurdle and determined that the PSU was bad. Now you have a good one installed. This pc is w-a-y better than the other and worth fixing. If you do it yourself. To pay a shop is not.

You said that you got into BIOS for a few seconds? If so, do a barebones boot. If you get to BIOS and it doesn't go blank, the problem is with something you disconnected. If the problem persists, it may be heat. When the screen goes blank, do the fans stop as well, as in shuts down?

Any beeps when you boot it? If you remove the RAM and try to boot, does it beep then?

Does this pc have a graphics card (monitor wire horizontal) or is it onboard (motherboard graphics uses monitor plug mounted vertically)?

HomeSA
03-21-2007, 07:22 PM
Can you read any model number off the motherboard?

Don't give up so soon. You are doing great and I'm impressed with your tenacity.

vivien
03-22-2007, 01:11 AM
omg, omg..Fruss Tray..i am, but, ignited with pc passion once again!! okay, so i put the new PSU back in pc. plugged in was CPU/HSF, PSU, PowerSW+HDD led+ResetSW+speakers, small pin cable from CD1 into CDIN1 on mobo, monitor, keyboard, mouse (that's my barebones stuff). plugged in AC to PSU, turned on power strip, hit on button and she powered up. Monitor went thru boot, pressed DEL to enter BIOS. Monitor stayed up. got outta BIOS, hit F1 to continue. one beep, received error about no disk.
this time, plugged in HDD and did same thing. one beep. Monitor shows some boot up? info and then "Press DEL to enter setup". i press DEL and nothing happens. i pressed F1, too, but nothing happens. monitor just stops with info on screen. here's some things showing:
AMD Anthlon 1400Mhz
Phoenix-Award BIOS v6.00pg
CPU temp: 35 deg C/95 deg F fan speed: 7031rpm
Sys temp: 23 deg C/73 deg F sys fan: 0 rpm

won't go any further. screen never goes blank, CPU/HSF keeps running (& of course, PSU fan running)...i don't have any other fans hooked up yet.
haven't removed RAM & then booted yet...should i now?
uh, i don't understand about the graphics card. there are 4 on mobo (1-RAM, 2-NIC, 3-?? ribbon cable running from card to CD drive, 4-?? says Creative Labs so is this the graphics?)...oh, oh, oh...the monitor cable goes into the back of the pc in a card and it is horizontal and, so, creative labs must be the graphics card..right?? now, the monitor cable screwed in easily, but now i can't get the thing to unscrew..sheesh. anyway, there we are.
HomeSA..i don't see a model number, but i'm not sure where to look for it either. all kinds of number, letters, etc. that just don't make sense to me.
thanks for words of encouragement...there's a light at the end of tunnel, but i don't know if it's a train or the sun...yet.
viv

vivien
03-22-2007, 01:31 AM
the exact error message with hdd disconnected is:
Verifying DMI Pool Data...
Disk Boot Failure, insert system disk and press enter

viv

vivien
03-22-2007, 01:38 AM
sorry i keep posting, but i'm thinking and, therefore, dangerous :)
i'm wondering if i hooked up the hdd correctly. i have a ribbon-type cable coming outta mobo "IDE1" and into hdd. have a 4-hole connector coming outta PSU into hdd and then directly under that i've plugged in a a smaller 4-hole connector coming from PSU. i looked on a website & i'm thinking the smaller one should go into the floppy drive???
viv

vivien
03-22-2007, 01:44 AM
naw..that can't be it .. the floppy drive takes a diff connector. sure wish i had labeled where the PSU cables went before i took it out to return it...didn't think i'd be putting it back in. i'm hoping hdd isn't bad since the boot stopped. gosh, my mind is racing.....wish my pc was!
viv

Sylvander
03-22-2007, 04:24 AM
"haven't removed RAM & then booted yet...should i now?"
No, you would only do that if you didn't see any sign of POST.
Removing RAM and getting resulting warning beeps would then tell you that POST was indeed running.

"received error about no disk...plugged in HDD and did same thing. one beep. Monitor shows some boot up? info and then "Press DEL to enter setup""
So the attempt by the BIOS to boot the HDD has failed.
In the BIOS Setup...
Are ALL the drives set to "Auto"?
Is the HDD correctly jumpered and connected?
Is the HDD partitioned and formatted, and is an OS installed that matches the hardware connected?
i.e Was Windows installed on this HDD while it was connected to this PC?
If you have a FDD or optical drive connected, set the BIOS to boot from these before the HDD and attempt to boot either a bootable floppy or a bootable optical disk.

"the exact error message with hdd disconnected is:
Verifying DMI Pool Data...
Disk Boot Failure, insert system disk and press enter"
The BIOS is looking for some kind of bootable disk, but is finding none.
You need to provide it with at least one bootable disk; bootable floppy in FDD, bootable optical disk in optical drive, bootable HDD.

"i have a ribbon-type cable coming outta mobo "IDE1" and into hdd"
The HDD should be connected to "ID0" [the Primary Controller] I believe, and jumpered as Master [as per HDD manufacturers instructions], and connected to the end [not the middle] connector.

Paul Komski
03-22-2007, 04:54 AM
You have made a lot of good progress. Sylvander's line If you have a FDD or optical drive connected, set the BIOS to boot from these before the HDD and attempt to boot either a bootable floppy or a bootable optical disk is where I suggest you begin but concentrate on booting just to the floppy and for the moment leave both any cdrom and hard drive disconnected to keep things as simple as possible and to just take one step at a time.

You also said i looked on a website & i'm thinking the smaller one should go into the floppy drive??? and you could be correct. Both hard drives and floppy drives should have two cables. One ribbon cable for data and one four-wire cable (two black, one yellow and one red) for their power. They are both smaller in size for the floppy than for hard or cdrom drives. The floppy's ribbon cable has a twist at one end and that end should attach to the floppy and not to the motherboard.

You next need to have a bootable floppy diskette in your possession (a Win98 OEM boot disk would be fine (http://bootdisk.com/bootdisk.htm)) and attempt to boot to it. The FDD should make a few whirring noises and its lights flash on and off during start off. If that doesn't happen then check that it is visible in the BIOS setup and that its two cables are firmly attached. Once you can boot to a floppy diskette you should then attach the HDD and see if you can "see it" by using fdisk from the floppy and that it is visible in the BIOS setup.

You can forget about the video card for now since you are obviously getting a display. The freeze when the temps display and with the HDD connected but absent when no HDD connected indicates there is some problem with the HDD; a problem that could be jumpering or cables/connections or possibly a bad drive or motherboard. Best guess is cables/conectors or jumpers.

FYI - you can edit posts for one hour after posting them.

vivien
03-22-2007, 05:08 AM
ok, got it on RAM..also found good research on BIOS/POST..lots of reading to do. oh, didn't know about editing threads within hour..thanks!

Are ALL the drives set to "Auto"?
entered setup and here's what shows:
correct time
Standard CMOS Features:
IDE Prim Master, IDE Prim Slave, IDE Sec Master, IDE Sec Slave all show NONE.
Drive A - 1.44m, 3.5 in
Video - EGA, VGA
Base Mem 640k
Extended Mem 261120k
Total Mem 262144k

Advanced BIOS features:
1st Boot Device - floppy
2nd Boot Device - CDROM
3rd Boot Devive - HDD-0
Boot other Device - enabled

so i don't see anything on any screen in setup that shows all (or some) drives set to Auto.

Is the HDD correctly jumpered and connected?
i believe the hdd is correctly connected (don't see jumpers anywhere, but i never changed them).

Is the HDD partitioned and formatted, and is an OS installed that matches the hardware connected?
i.e Was Windows installed on this HDD while it was connected to this PC?
the hdd is the one that's been used with the pc for years until it wouldn't power up...winxp pro was OS, and i don't remember if it was partitioned C and D or just C.

If you have a FDD or optical drive connected, set the BIOS to boot from these before the HDD and attempt to boot either a bootable floppy or a bootable optical disk.
as you can see from above, it should boot floppy, CD-ROM, then HDD.
uh-oh. i don't think i have a bootable disk, but quick look on web & i think i can download one for winxp. but, i'll look around here & see if i'm lucky. i always thot bootable had to be made from the pc you are wanting to use it on?
from paul:
Once you can boot to a floppy diskette you should then attach the HDD and see if you can "see it" by using fdisk from the floppy and that it is visible in the BIOS setup.
i don't know what you mean about "fdisk from the floppy"..i'll research it.
okay, i'd better get some shuteye (it's 1am here & i'm getting loopy).
thank you Sylvander and Paul, i actually think some of this is starting to sink in :D
viv

Paul Komski
03-22-2007, 05:18 AM
IDE Prim Master, IDE Prim Slave, IDE Sec Master, IDE Sec Slave all show NONE.This along with the freeze needs to be corrected before you can hope to boot to a hard drive.


so i don't see anything on any screen in setup that shows all (or some) drives set to Auto.

Where NONE shows in the first quote is the place you would set AUTO or similar; the NONE should be editable. If the jumpering/cables/drive are bad or wrong then NONE is all that you will get.


(don't see jumpers anywhere, but i never changed them).The jumpers should be set to master. The HDD should be at the end of the ribbon cable. If still not detectable in the BIOS try it in another PC or try another HDD in this one.


don't know what you mean about "fdisk from the floppy"Getting the floppy running is I suggest the first priority. Fdisk is a DOS program run from the floppy's A: drive that looks at the partitioning of the hard drive. It can give you details or delete and remake partitions. Its value here is largely for information though it could be used to repartition the hard drive.


& i think i can download one for winxpGet a Win98 or WinME startup diskette or similar. Not WinXP diskettes which have completely different functions.

Sylvander
03-22-2007, 05:55 AM
"Where NONE shows in the first quote is the place you would set AUTO or similar; the NONE should be editable"
In at least one of my PC's BIOS Setup, I use the up/down keys to highlight the "None", then use "Page Up" or "Page Down" to change the "None" to "Auto".

This makes the BIOS "Dynamically Auto-detect" the drives at each/every Startup, and configure their drive parameter settings in the BIOS's configuration settings, so that that the drives will work as they aught because the BIOS is handling them appropriately to their physical make-up.

Which manufacturer made the HDD? [Which make?]

"don't see jumpers anywhere"
It's on the rear of the HDD.
See post #4 HERE (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25502), to the right of the image and the set of 6 pins [2 up & 3 wide] are below the connection diagram.
The Master setting is the set of 2 above & below pins to the right marked MA.
The jumper is a little black plastic thing with 2 copper sockets that connects the 2 pins you connect it to.
See How To Install and Troubleshoot ATA Hard Drives (http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=How_To_Install_and_Troubleshoot_ATA_Hard_Driv es&vgnextoid=559e5b1142aec010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD ), and [as an example] jumper settings for Maxtor HDD's (http://www.seagate.com/images/support/en/us/mxo_ata_jumpers.gif) [they probably don't apply to your make of HDD if different].

Mind you, as Paul says, you should do the FDD thingy first.

HomeSA
03-22-2007, 10:10 AM
All of the above are great suggestions; however, in my thinking, if you haven't changed anything in the BIOS, or the jumper settings on the HD, then concentrate on:

1) Making a boot floppy and see if you can boot from it.

2) If successful, then concentrate on the Hard drive by either:

a- double checking all the connections since you might have a wrong/poor cable connection

or

b- checking the integrity of the hard drive by running a diagnostic software via an ISO CD or a bootable floppy. It's easy and we can walk you through it.

Going back to the history of the PC and how it broke down suddently, I am fairly sure PSU was the only culprit and the boot problems are most likely incorrect connections, unless the HD failed along the way. Of course, with PCs anything is possible.

You have made a lot of progress. Hang in there.

vivien
03-22-2007, 02:26 PM
Sylvander:
"don't see jumpers anywhere"
It's on the rear of the HDD.
i do see five blue jumpers on the mobo. i cannot distinguish the markings to tell what they are for & i don't know where to find manuf. of mobo on mobo.
however, i removed the hdd and took a pic (thanks HomeSA for this suggestion). i'm gonna "try" to put it here:

C:/desktop/Western Digital 002.jpg

whoops..that didn't work, so i don't know how to insert a pic.
the back of the hdd shows a 4-pin connect (12v-gnd-gnd-5v).
followed by a set of smaller 8-pin connect (cs-slave-master-blank-pm2).
followed by multi-pin connect where the ribbon cable goes.
i have a PSU cable that has 3 of the 4-pin connectors; one will go into the 4-pin connect on the hdd.
at the end of the 3 4-pin connectors on the PSU cable dangles a small connector which looks like the one in the link you gave me (on jumpers), but it's post # 23. in post #23, it states that the small connector is for the floppy drive; however, my floppy drive doesn't have anywhere for that connector to go; however, the hdd does. so, that's why i'm wondering if i had plugged the hdd in correctly.
i read through the other links and i see how they are placing jumpers over the pins in order to tell pc drive is master, slave, etc.
i never had jumpers nor did i remove any from the hdd or the mobo, so i'm thinking the smaller 8-pin connector is suppose to somehow be relaying that info to mobo??
but, to not confuse me further, i'll first try the bootup (i found a win98 disk; however, it doesn't look like it's from the manufacturer). and i'll try to see if i BIOS will let me change the "none" on the drives to "auto"..i tried using the right/left arrow keys last night, but nothing happened..i'll try the page up/down ones this time. i'm going to stop here and go do that, then pick up with the rest of the suggestions.
viv

Sylvander
03-22-2007, 02:44 PM
"i do see five blue jumpers on the mobo....i don't know where to find manuf. of mobo on mobo."
It's the HDD you should be thinking about.
I see it's a Western Digital HDD; for got to say we/you [may] need the exact model to look up the correct jumper settings.

How big is that jpg file your attempting to upload?

Paul Komski
03-22-2007, 02:45 PM
The hard drive jumpers are on the back of the hard drive next to where the four wire power connector goes.

WD pdf file showing SATA and EIDE at http://www.wdc.com/en/library/eide/2579-001037.pdf

http://images.thgweb.de/2005/11/16/das_grosse_thg_stecker_kompendium/hdd_jumper_ma.jpg

The above pic has the jumper marked as Master. Your position may well be different but there is usually a diagram on the HDD somewhere.

If you want to show your photo you could first upload it to www.tinypic.com

vivien
03-22-2007, 03:29 PM
whew! thanks for the image help. by george..i think i've got it!
http://i12.tinypic.com/4bzuu6q.jpg
no jumper sleeves..never were (i do see where it would go if i had one), but why would i need one now, when hdd never had any to begin with??

i went into BIOS and tried page up/down, arrows space bar ... the "none" on the drives would not let me change it.
i unhooked hdd, hooked up CD1 and input win98 disk (not OEM) & booted. CD1 drive was recognized, but disk was not.
unhooked CD1 and tried same with CD2. got error message about disk failure.
i have located a win95 OEM, could i try boot with that. if not, then should i try the ISO thing?
viv
edit:
yes, i did read through the info for my hdd model ws400bb on the western digital site. the quick installation guide said if the hdd is the only drive on the cable, then it looks like i wouldn't need any jumpers positioned. and, my hdd is the only drive using the ribbon cable. so, do you still think i'm needing jumpers on the hdd master pins?
2nd edit: i checked old PSU and i had marked what was plugged into the hdd (didn't even recall doing that...yes, i can hear the twilight zone music). okay, so the PSU 4-pin connector AND the smaller connector (the connector "looks" like it had 4-pins, but now i think it's the 10-pin one in the #23 post mentioned earlier)...anyway, they both were connected to the hdd, so then i couldn't have had a jumpers or the connect would not have been able to attach. i did try boot without attaching smaller 10pin connect & got same error about disk failure. i think i should test hdd.
viv

SufferWell1396
03-22-2007, 04:04 PM
You need to have a jumper if you plan to run Dual Drive configurations, if you dont, then just leave it alone and it should be fine. Same goes for CD ROM drives too. You should be able to have CD1 CD2 and the HDD all hooked up to the computer if you got it right.
Radio Shack / Circuit City / Best Buy/ ect. should have some jumpers there, 25 for like 3-7 dollars or something.

vivien
03-22-2007, 04:18 PM
dual drive? uhhh, that means two drives, i guess. so, does that mean am i using two drives on one ribbon cable (parallel?) or two drives on one PSU cable? or something entirely different? i have hdd, CD1 and CD2 (one says compact disc, the other says compact disc, read/writable).
i don't have a prob buying the jumpers and putting it on, but i'm just trying to make sure that's what i need to do because i'd a-thunk they would be there if they had been required previously. this case has never been open since i got it, so i'm not understanding the "why now".
can i use the win95 OEM to boot? i'd try it just to try it, but i'm not sure i'd screw something up.

edit: here's the website i'm looking at: http://www.tech-faq.com/ata.shtml
in particular..."Cable Select: A newer standard for configuring Master/Slave relationships on ATA drives is to allow the position of the drives on the drive cable to determine the ordering."
since the hdd was the only and is currently the only drive on the cable..then i don't need to set jumpers????
sorry, i'm being a pain, but i gotta get it to move on..i guess, it's a woman thing. :D
viv

vivien
03-22-2007, 04:32 PM
is this what instructions i'd follow to create a bootable disk (past post from sylvander).
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41485
-and, would this be my next step?
viv

SufferWell1396
03-22-2007, 04:35 PM
so, does that mean am i using two drives on one ribbon cable

Yes. For the CD ROMS only though, if your only using one hard drive and you dont plan to shoot another in, no need to bother with jumpers.

Make sure the BIOS is set to boot off CD-ROM first and not hard drive or floppy.

vivien
03-22-2007, 04:46 PM
if your only using one hard drive and you dont plan to shoot another in, no need to bother with jumpers
yeah..now i can move on. i'm pretty confident the hdd had been connected correctly.
so, can i boot from a win95 OEM cd? if so, i will change BIOS to boot CDrom, unhook hdd, hook up cd drive and try it. does it matter which cd drive (as long as BIOS indicates correct one)?
viv

vivien
03-22-2007, 09:33 PM
HomeSA wrote:

in my thinking, if you haven't changed anything in the BIOS, or the jumper settings on the HD, then concentrate on:

1) Making a boot floppy and see if you can boot from it.

2) If successful, then concentrate on the Hard drive by either:

a- double checking all the connections since you might have a wrong/poor cable connection

or

b- checking the integrity of the hard drive by running a diagnostic software via an ISO CD or a bootable floppy. It's easy and we can walk you through it.

Going back to the history of the PC and how it broke down suddently, I am fairly sure PSU was the only culprit and the boot problems are most likely incorrect connections, unless the HD failed along the way. Of course, with PCs anything is possible.

okay, seems i need to make a boot floppy? do i use the link Sylvander had on "how to make an EBCD bootable disk" above in Post # 79 (79!!! oh, good grief)? i read thru Sylvander's post and it's pretty technical for me, so i'm sure i'll have question along the way...or can i download win98 boot info from web and use that? i don't have an OEM disk for win 98. i do have an OEM for win95.
viv

david eaton
03-22-2007, 09:40 PM
Probably the best one to use would be a Win98SE boot disk, which can be downloaded from www.bootdisk.com.

vivien
03-22-2007, 11:15 PM
good-golly, i can't believe it. i actually just got done reading and subscribing to bootdisk.com...hey, maybe there is hope for me yet ;)

SufferWell1396
03-22-2007, 11:53 PM
You can hook up the Hard drive and CD ROM drives at the same time, which is what you will need to do if you want to install an OS. Have a look see

IDE (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Abit/AT8/images/pata.jpg)

The IDE connectors are in turquoise. notice there are two, one for the hard drive (regularly IDE1) and one for the CD ROM drive(s) (regularly IDE2)

vivien
03-23-2007, 01:04 AM
she's baaaaack.
ok, i found this really good site, http://biorobots.cwru.edu/server/howto/buildcomp/intro/
hey, it has pictures, too....so maybe this site and that site will finally sink in for me.
in particular, how to hook up drives. i tried various things with the cables, etc. and here's the bottom line of what's going on now:
1. hdd - i have IDE cable connected correctly (lined up the blank pin areas)
2. floppy - connected the floppy cable and smaller PSU cable to A:
3. put win98se bootup disk in A:
4. powered up pc
5. lights on front of case show: red (looks like a hdd pic), green (looks like a lightbulb) and light on floppy drive stays on (website said i had IDE cable in wrong).
6. turned floppy IDE cable around, and now there is NO light for A: drive
i keep getting to the screen that shows "press DEL to enter setup" and then nothing happens when i push DEL or any other keys.
soooo, now what do i do? if i can't boot from floppy, should i try to boot from cd? i just copied the boot disk to desktop of working pc, hit enter and the files were written to floppy. i didn't go in and edit the floppy, i used as is.
viv
edit: just read thru pcguide on building a computer...what a GREAT job! GREAT pictures! i shoulda started here first, of course.
i believe the hdd and floppy are connected correctly. i do not see a pin1 on the floppy anywhere in order to line red side of IDE cable, but if i place cable one way on floppy...there is no light, place it the other way and the light stays on always, whether there is a floppy or not.
viv

vivien
03-23-2007, 02:57 AM
researched floppy light and found if it stays on continuously or upon bootup error msg "floppy disk fail (40)" could be to reverse IDE cable. did that. now i have no light when power up on A:drive. i do have the PSU power cable connected to A:drive. does this mean A:drive is bad?
if so, can i just copy the win98se bootdisk files to a CD, change BIOS to 1st boot from CD and try it?
i wanna just keep trying things one after the other, but i don't wanna screw something up even worse, so that's why i'm not just going ahead and doing stuff without checking first.
okay, so to go with my green color, i might be a little yellow, too :)
SW...i shouldn't have to install OS, because winxp pro was already on there, right? i'm just trying to boot to see if i can get to the C: drive (which, i think is partitioned into 3's).
viv

Paul Komski
03-23-2007, 04:08 AM
Please leave off the HDD and CDs and just work on the floppy. Light continuously on is no good. Usually (not always) the FDD will flash just once during start-up and after that only when trying to access a diskette inside it - at which point in time it should make whirring noises as it reads/tries-to-read the diskette. If there is a bootable diskette inside it during startup and FDD is number 1 in the boot order it should make the whirring noises fairly early in the boot process.

Much earlier in this thread the BIOS showed the floppy as detected - it was when you described all the IDE/ATAPI controllers as showing NONE; and showing NONE when the HDD was connected. AFAIK that situation regarding the HDD hasn't changed and the BIOS has never detected the HDD though it has detected one of the CDs on one occasion.

If any of these drives are attached but not detected in the BIOS setup then either they are bad or badly connected. Any bad or badly connected piece of hardware can prevent the PC from completing its POST and startup.

If the FDD is really bad then it needs to be replaced or an attempt made to just connect the CD drive (the one that was detected in the BIOS and it doesnt matter if it is a CD or a CDRW - though CDRWs, or burners, are generally better at consistently reading home-made CDs) and attempt to boot to a bootable CD Disk. Once we can get any one of the three types of drives detected by the BIOS there is hope of booting to its disk or diskette. Until we achieve that degree of success please stay with just one drive at a time. The next step would be to access or attempt to access the HDD, but if the HDD is not detected in the BIOS no amount of trying will enable one to install an OS or otherwise access the Hard Drive's Disk from a boot floppy or a boot CD.

Sylvander
03-23-2007, 04:18 AM
"light on floppy drive stays on"
...Means the signal cable is on the wrong way round; reverse it.

"nothing happens when i push DEL or any other keys"
Not good; probably caused by the FDD signal cable being connected the wrong way round.

Here's a good bootable floppy; the program that runs will detect all your connected/bootable drives and display all of them and you can choose/highlight one and hit enter to boot it.
How to make a free “Smart Boot Manager” bootable floppy
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=41498
This makes it easier to boot a chosen drive [particularly the one holding the EBCD].

HomeSA
03-23-2007, 09:28 AM
I don't know if anyone mentioned this being that the thread has gotten long and wordy.

Replace the CMOS battery. It's the size of a quarter and sits on the motherboard. Take the old one out, wait at least 30 minutes, and put in the new one.

HomeSA
03-23-2007, 09:37 AM
Please leave off the HDD and CDs and just work on the floppy...............

..........Until we achieve that degree of success please stay with just one drive at a time. The next step would be to access or attempt to access the HDD, but if the HDD is not detected in the BIOS no amount of trying will enable one to install an OS or otherwise access the Hard Drive's Disk from a boot floppy or a boot CD.

Sound advice. Viven, I think you are confusing yourself by trying to work on all the drives at the same time.

Concentrate on booting off the floppy. Thriple check connections, triple check the integrity of the floppy. Try to boot the old WIN95 machine with the floppy to make sure the floppy is made correctly. Take notes of everything you do to the WIN95 machine so you can reverse in case something goes wrong with changing the boot order in the BIOS.

vivien
03-23-2007, 02:06 PM
try to keep my wording down, but wish you all were in next room!
1. AMD booted off floppy SUCCESSFULLY!!
2. Didn't know what to do at prompts
a. selected boot without CD
b. got to A: prompt
c. read thru help file
d. changed to C:>
e. entered WIN, but no go
3. should i try selecting "boot with CD" (my winxp one)?
viv
edit: how come i could change to C:> prompt without the hdd hooked up?

Sylvander
03-23-2007, 02:49 PM
If you just want to boot a bootable CD, then first booting the "Smart Boot Manager" floppy is my preferred method, because...

1. You don't need to have the optical disk before the HDD [or the floppy] in the BIOS boot menu.
Set the menu sequence at 1 = floppy, 2 = HDD, 3 = optical drive.

2. As long as the FDD is before the HDD in the boot menu, you just put the SBM floppy in the drive, boot from that [or is it TO, Paul?], and choose which drive [detected as being connected] you want to boot.
Make sure there's a bootable optical disk in the tray, choose the optical drive in the displayed menu, close the drive and wait until the LED stops blinking before you hit "Enter".

vivien
03-23-2007, 03:07 PM
If you just want to boot a bootable CD,
not sure what that means...i think what i want is to get to my hdd (winxp pro is loaded, data, etc.). does this mean, at this point, i should be using a startup disk?

then first booting the "Smart Boot Manager" floppy is my preferred method, because...
so, now that i've created the win98se OEM from bootdisk and my pc is finally booting..i now need to create another boot disk (SBM), right?
the menu seq is currently floppy, CD, hdd.

Make sure there's a bootable optical disk in the tray,
when you say 'bootable OD', do you mean winxp os disk, or do i need to create a bootable OD (such as SBM)?
viv
edit: i'll try the SBM & see what happens. thanks

vivien
03-23-2007, 04:56 PM
Sylvander: i read post on creating SBM.
not sure about DOS stuff, but i found sbm.exe @ http://www.iol.ie/~krakowangus/sbm/sbm.htm (hope that's the same). i booted and this is what Boot Menu showed (hdd and CD not hooked up):

Flags Number Type Name

-------------- --- -- None Quit to BIOS
-------------- --- -- None Power Off
-------------- --- -- None Reboot
-------------D FD0 0 None Floppy
-------------D FDF 0 None Floppy

i ran it again after hooking up hdd and the pc boot process stopped with
"Press DEL to enter Setup". i pressed keys and nothing happened.
does this mean hdd is bad then? oh, i had changed the menu seq to floppy, hdd, CD.
viv

Sylvander
03-23-2007, 05:29 PM
1. "not sure what that means"
Well, not all disks [floppy, CD, DVD, HDD] are bootable.
e.g. Your HDD might not even be partitioned and formatted, nor even have an OS installed, in which case it wouldn't be bootable. There's no OS on it and no programs to run using that OS.
You could have data CD's or music CD's that are not bootable [cannot be booted, no OS or programs to load].
There are lots of possible CD's that ARE bootable, like your WinXP installation CD, or an "Emergency Boot CD" [EBCD], or a "Knoppix Linux Live CD", or the "Ultimate Boot CD", or the "Acronis True Image Rescue CD" [some that I have].

2. "what i want is to get to my hdd...does this mean, at this point, i should be using a startup disk?"
Depends what you want to do with your HDD. What does "get to my HDD" mean?
If you wanted to browse the contents of the partitions on the HDD, you could...
A. Use the DOS prompt provided by the [bootable] Startup floppy to navigate the content on your HDD's C: partition.
B. But the EBCD "File Manager" has a nice GUI, and is much nicer and easier way to browse the contents of a drive/partition and manipulate the folders/files [delete, copy, move, read/edit text files etc].
It has left & right panes so can display 2 partitions/drives at once and you can see both the source and destination of a folder/file you want to copy/move.

3. "i now need to create another boot disk (SBM), right?"
You don't have to, but it's a better "tool" for the job, and you should begin to build a nice set of useful [bootable] utility disks ["tools"].
Once you have a nice set of "tools" in your "box", you have a selection from which to choose the best in each circumstance.
You'll almost certainly be delighted when you see what each can do.
e.g The EBCD includes 32 DOS commands and MANY other REALLY USEFUL programs too.

4. "when you say 'bootable OD', do you mean winxp os disk"
Yes, plus others such as those mentioned in 1 above.

"do i need to create a bootable OD"
The EBCD and the Knoppix Linux Live CD (http://www.knoppix.net/get.php) are really worth having around.
e.g. Knoppix [loaded from the CD] is effectively incorruptible, loads a full Operating System with which you can do the usual things like going on the web [it includes Firefox], manipulating files on your [internal & external USB] HDD.

"i'll try the SBM & see what happens"
Smart move, you won't regret it.

Oops, you got post #95 in before me.

Paul Komski
03-23-2007, 06:05 PM
I still think it would be helpful to do one thing at a time. We now know the system will boot to a floppy. So the next thing is to see if the floppy can access the Hard Drive. Trying to access a CD at this point, directly or indirectly with a boot manner, IMHO just obfuscates the matter at hand.

Vivien asked a logical question: "how come i could change to C:> prompt without the hdd hooked up?" ... and the answer is almost certainly because the floppy created a RamDrive, which would get the drive letter C: when no hard drive was attached or accessible. This could be confirmed by entering dir at the C: prompt and my guess is you would see the contents of the ramdrive.

I suggest leaving the CD Drives completely out of the mix entirely at this point. Add on the Hard Drive and go into the BIOS and see if it is detected. Set to auto if you can. I suspect this drive is bad or just possibly cant cope with 40gig. In the latter case the system might freeze without being able to enter the BIOS but if you can get into the BIOS and not see the hard drive there is a fundamental problem - and that means go out and get a new hard drive. If you want to double-check then try the hard drive in another computer (appropriately jumpered and connected) - and if the second computer also sees no hard drive then that should clinch it.

PS A note on SBM. This is a fine and very useful utility - the source code of which is the basis for a number of boot managers. It can often boot a CD that is otherwise unbootable BUT ... BUT it will only be capable of booting a CD if the BIOS itself supports a CD drive as an Initial Program Loader (IPL) Device. I'm pretty sure, from memory, that this is to do with Int19 calls. The point is that SBM doesnt work on every BIOS/CDdrive combination. It looks as if this mobo is one of those in question since the CDROM does not appear in its list of devices.

vivien
03-23-2007, 06:33 PM
This could be confirmed by entering dir at the C: prompt and my guess is you would see the contents of the ramdrive.
i did do a DIR then and listed were about 20-30 files.

Add on the Hard Drive and go into the BIOS and see if it is detected.
also did this. while hdd hooked up tried to boot with sbm.exe and win98se OEM bootdisk. display got to msg "Press DEL to enter Setup" in both incidents. i could not get into BIOS no matter what keys i pressed.
however; when i unhooked hdd and ran both bootup disks, i could get into BIOS.

I suspect this drive is bad or just possibly cant cope with 40gig. In the latter case the system might freeze without being able to enter the BIOS
i'm thinking the hdd is bad (per post #95). 40gb has always been in this pc, so i'm not sure why it wouldn't be able to cope with it now. sooo, i think for data sake, i'll see if i can access it with another pc as you suggested.
if not, i guess i'll have to purchase a new hdd.
i want to thank EVERYONE from the bottom of my 'bootstraps' for all their help.
at this point, before i reach #100 posts, can we close out this thread & then if i have problems after install new hdd, i'll come in with new thread.
or, do i need to do something else before i march on... :eek:
viv

Paul Komski
03-23-2007, 06:43 PM
A ramdrive, when one is created, is typically made by extracting the contents of a cab file into an allocated area of RAM - called a RAM drive since this area gets assigned a drive letter.

Windows startup diskettes typically have an ebd.cab file that gets expanded in this fashion. It would contain the files shown here (http://www.cwdixon.com/support/win98_support/win98_startup_disk.htm) in a Win98 startup diskette.

Hope and suspect a new HDD will work for you.