Attitude Busted Again

[not_fred]

Folks, our collective approach to handling frustrated rookies isn't working very well.

I'm somewhat new myself, so am hesitant to serve up criticism. I value the PC Guide quite a bit, and read it 2 or 3 times a day just to keep up with the forums. In perspective, that's out of what is normally a 12-hour working day, plus child care.

I've read through the most recent set of contentious threads from start to finish. My assessment is that it has, at best, been handled poorly. At worst, it has been been handled unfairly, without an even hand.

Most of the threads in question were short, to the point, and without contention. After a few, the author began to express some degree of frustration, which is understandable. The author did not, at that point, offer any insulting opinions. Unfortunately, a long-standing member chose that point to insult the author of the thread as wanting to be spoon-fed. Other long-standing members joined in with a string of insults.

Frankly, I found that offensive.

That original post was ill-considered, should not have been submitted, and has never been apologised for. There should be no surprise on the part of any frequent member of this forum that the bait was taken, especially considering the locale of the author. Not all cultures respond to apparent criticism the way we do. In the context of their society (look again at the hail), the author's counter was actually pretty mild.

In the second instance, a separate thread, another long-standing member pounced on the author with a disparaging comment. Pete, I have to say that you punished the second foul on that one. I disagree with your admonishment, although not with your authority to make it. Personally, when I read the initial foul on that thread, I cringed, seeing shades of KG again. In my considered opinion, you should have thrown the flag at the first expression of picque, without regard to how long the member has been here. Rules are rules, and of no value unless evenly applied.

The net effect of the string of sharp comments against the author was simple aggression. It did not have to be posted. Old style ettiqutte still aplies. If you don't like where an author is headed, don't post. Just ignore the thread. Posts such as the original spoon-fed comment are just as destructuve of the professionalism of this site as were the author's responses. So was the post taking the author to task for not liking the first explanation. The author was also rude, in the context of our society, but certainly wasn't commiting the first foul in either case.

[This message has been edited by not_fred (edited 03-26-2002).]

[hiredgoonz]

I can see your point, but I think that the idea behind the spoon-fed comment was to inform the poster that these forums are, in general, not a place to try to get your homework done.

Everyone is here out of the goodness of their hearts and generally, I think that "beggars can't be choosers" applies. I think it shows a tremendous amount of audacity and ungratefulness to complain about free advice given by volunteers.

As far as any insulting comments made by people here. I think if you go back and track ALL the posts by the person in question, you will find that the rotten attitude and complaints about the quality of help given here began before any of the regulars made any disparaging comments.

(I just checked now to be sure. The complaining started almost immediately.)

This was followed by several other posts that were obviously straight out of his homework. No one here should feel obligated to do research and post the results in a digestible form for someone who doesn't want to work for themself. And no one here should have to listen to complaints about a correct, honest and thoughtful answer they provide simply because it doesn't fit neatly into the poster's homework requirements.

If you doubt what I have written, please go back and check the posts and WHEN they were posted. In one particular thread a not-so-nice comment was made by a regular, seemingly without provocation, but it was preceded by crappy and TOTALLY unjustified comments in another thread.

No one here has a problem helping people out, but I think it got to the point of feeling "used" by the person in question and no one here should have to put up with it...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

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Google (http://www.google.com)

[not_fred]

I have read the posts in order of datetime, and also in thread order. I believe the thread author's responses are mostly the expression of frustration in a cultural reference frame that is unfamiliar to most of the regulars in this forum, until targeted with our own insults. The snide comments did not contribute to anything other than to relieve the tension of the people that wrote them.

My point remains, and will remain. It is not necessary for the senior correspondents of this forum to display their irritation. If irritated at the attitude of an author, just walk away. If the questions appear to be homework and an answer isn't warranted, just walk away. The sniping has never helped, and will never help. It invites the type of exchanges that are so heavily deplored by several of the same people that exacerbate them.

[iisbob]

Quite frankly all i see here not_fred is an attempt by you to start a flame war; not only has Goonz given you an exceptional explanantion ( when it's not needed ) , but he has gone out of his way to be polite-whereas you are displaying the very P*sspoor attitude you claim to see in our members here.

to quote yourself; .. If irritated at the attitude of an author, just walk away...

The regular members of the forum have already contributed their thoughts to the action's on that particular thread, and certainly don't need-nor wish - your input.

As for the excuse of " cultural " or " youthful " differences, that's garbage-you are expected to comport yourself with reservation & diginity becoming a mature adult regardless of where you hail from when you are a guest in another's home-ignorance of local custom's is no excuse and shows an appaling lack of judgement on your part.

Now i've participated in forum's over the years, long before there was an internet that was commonly accessed, and just as in the old BB days, i've seen your kind before-the nosy, holier than thou attitude dislpaying an arrogant ignorance of the subject's at hand and the belief that everything you say or do is right, and everyone else is wrong.

If you feel compelled to post your comments here, then by all means feel free to do so-but do not instigate the very attitude you claim " better " members should not. And when one of those members attempts to give you a very reasonable and totally unnecessary explanantion, don't jump down his throat in your own self righteous anger.



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iisbob

The man who sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and which never will grow dim or doubtful. -- Mark Twain.

[hiredgoonz]

Regardless of the reason for the attitude of the poster, frustration or disrespect, it was uncalled for.

You don't get pissy with people that are doing you a favor, period.

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[sea69]

well, not_fred- your comments are mostly vague, for instance I know I was in there, but was I "one of the bad guys"??

I thought this was all history anyway??

I seem to remember a thread by bassman that dealt with this that was widely recieved as a good common sense way to deal with these people that come in and don't know how we do things here.

Bottom line I think is that while we really should try and ignore or not feed into such posts, it is HUMAN NATURE to defend those that you commonly work with and have formed 'friendships'.

I also wonder- had you been away, or what- had you just seen this?

and:
If irritated at the attitude of an author, just walk away. If the questions appear to be homework and an answer isn't warranted, just walk away. The sniping has never helped, and will never help. It invites the type of exchanges that are so heavily deplored by several of the same people that exacerbate them.


that is exactly what you have done and you seem to have contradicted your own self ideals by posting this?

I don't mean to be harsh, and your thoughts are well recieved but what would be the answer in your opinion??

this thread in itself causes division, derision and controversy, is this an experiment so that you can make a point??

I don't know- it seems you yourself have been here a pretty long time right ??

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/index.html)

[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 03-26-2002).]

[YODA74]

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif Thought we had all this straightened out? I'm the one that made the comment that "I guess he wants to be spoon-fed" and I do not regret saying it,Actually I could have said a whole lot more but did not.I give to this forum a whole lot more than I take from it,Well let me clarify that I don't ask a whole lot of guestions but I do answer a bunch and I get more of an education here doing it this way than I would from any school! so I guess it works out about even.I have paid my dues to this forum,my country,and to my wife.And it will be a cold day in August when I give this young man an Apology for being arigant. I don't care what culture or country he/she is from.And seems that I am pretty much the one that your talking about I would suggest that this whole conversation end Here and now.This is water under the bridge and the troll no longer wants to play!

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@windows-sucks.com

[Paul Komski]

Who was it that said; "Say little but carry a big stick". http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Less is often more. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Paul Komski (edited 03-26-2002).]

[pentachris]

I'm pretty sure that's a Theodore Roosevelt quote.

Look, I've asked some stupid questions here before. I've gotten some answers that I raised my eyebrow at and decided to ignore. Not many, but a few. I have made posts to these boards that I shouldn't have. I have seen posts and threads that I felt had no place here. More than anything, though, I have learned a lot here.

I'm only human, and I've made some mistakes. I appreciate it when they are pointed out tactfully. If they are pointed out with a mean spirit, or if I feel otherwise slighted here, I get over it and I'm still better for it in the long run.

These forums are, for the most part, very classy and a good resource. But they are also just like any other message board - composed of a core group of people with a common interest who have formed a community. I think the regulars often go out of their way to open up to newcomers, which is more than you can say for most other message boards. And any newcomer with half a brain and a little maturity should be able to disern from a random sampling of threads that there's help to be had here if you need it and if you show an effort to learn.

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Some mistakes are too much fun to make only once.

[buck52]

Theodore Roosevelt..."Speak softly and carry a big stick"

buck http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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just hav'n fun

[Flick]

The way I see it, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". This is the Internet and it is global. Therefore, it is incumbent upon me to walk softly until I know the landscape. I am very new to this forum. Most of the folks on this forum have forgotten more about computers than I will ever know. My first question on this board had to do with my hard drive going bad and one of the members (mjc) was able to diagnose the problem for me perfectly. I can tell you from experience that Dell, Gateway and HP computer support don't hold a candle to this resource. I had other questions too and these people have gone out of their way to help me. I know that some of my questions have been rather elementary (at least to the experts here). I had a fear that someone might talk down to me or tell me that I was stupid. That has not happened and I think I know the reason. When I first found the PC Guide, I lurked for awhile to understand the tone of the site and the rules. Although my first question was urgent (to me) I wanted to get the feel of things. Next, I used the search function to see if I could find the answer myself. Only after using the search function and determining that my question had not yet been addressed, did I decide to make my first post.

I followed the entire thread of which you speak not_fred in real time. The "spoon-fed" comment was just part of A LOT of good advice given by the same poster. The question asked was enormous in scope and while I feel sure many of the experts on this forum could have provided the answer, it would have taken 20 or 30 GB of space. Also don't forget that this post by do_little was just one of many that were extremely broad. In each and every response the folks on this forum attempted to guide him in the right direction. What did he do? He threw it all up in the face of people that attempted to help him. He simply bit the hand(s) that tried to feed him and yet they still put up with him! Boy, these folks have patience! Had someone wanted to be really rude, he gave them more than enough ammunition. No not_fred, I think you are way off target here.

[bassman]

READ THIS (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000116.html).

THIS IS DONE AND NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID.
THIS IS A WASTE OF TIME!!!!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

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A real Christian is one who can give his pet parrot to the town gossip.
Frank's Place (http://dreamwater.net/tech/frankscomp/)

[diurnal]

If you don't like where an author is headed, don't post. Just ignore the thread.


You say ignore the post however u persist on keeping the topic alive by posting this. So please take your own advice. Thank you

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Murph's Law: 1.Everything takes longer than you think
2.If anything can go wrong it will
3.Nothing is as easy as it looks

[Paleo Pete]

OK enough already...

I can't add much to what's already been posted here, but I feel that renewing an issue that we thought was finished, dead and buried is not in good taste. You should have posted your comments and criticisms in either the original topic or the one Bassman posted relating to it. Flogging a dead horse only makes your arm sore...

I'm not perfect, far from it, but I do the best I can. I've run the forums for well over a year and managed to stay mostly on top of things, and I think I've done fairly well. I have certainly made mistakes, missed things and made a bad call or three. But when I'm sure I'm right I stand my ground, and so far it's paid off.

The main points I tried to get across were that the original poster was insisting on intricately detailed descriptions of the fundamental workings of a computer, and was indignant when the details were not handed over on a platter.

The details insisted on would have been a major undertaking. Possibly someone here might be able to describe the way a computer communicates with its various components in minute detail, but he or she would still be typing now.

The regular participants were patient, several questions were answered and good links were posted, but that did not suffice. More detail was insisted on. I say insisted because that is what it appears to have been. If you read all of the topics you will find that in a couple of them statements were made that indicated links to search engines and general, broad answers would not be sufficient.

We cannot be expected to write books, or attempt getting into highly detailed responses that would involve days of research and hours, possibly days, of typing. This is a tech support forum, oriented around fixing computers, it's not a college level computer science course. Answers to the questions asked would have been appropriate in such a class, but here we deal with software and hardware problems, and leave the minute details to the designers and engineers.

As far as the conduct of our regular members, I have alreay stated in another topic not long ago that I have to be careful how I handle different situations. In a case like this, where feathers have been ruffled, if I were to take a highly aggressive stance and stop it fast, frustrations would build up over time and sooner or later we would have big trouble. Therefore I have to be patient and let people blow off a bit of steam now and then, anything else would be suicide for the forums.

The people here are well aware of the way I do things, and they know I definitely will step in when I think it's gone too far. They handled this one fairly well, when compared to past confrontations of the same nature. What you should try to understand though, is that this is an ongoing, long term effort. I spend a lot of time going over every post when a problem comes up, and I make sure I know exactly what the situation is before I start typing. I have also let our regular members know for a long time the general direction I want the forums as a whole to go, and they seem to keep that in mind when dealing with a situation of this nature.

We've made a lot of progress, most forums of this type don't have anywhere near the record we have. 7,000 registered members and only 3 have been banned so far. Some of the people here have been with us well over a year, and many have progressed from asking questions to answering them. Some have gotten a rocky start, only to later turn out to be highly respected regulars. Ask iisbob about that one... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif He started here by ruffling every feather in sight and now is one of our most well respected members. I wouldn't have it any other way.

We still have some problems now and then, but in general the PC Guide Discussion Forums have developed into all I wanted when I started and then some. I saw the member cound hit 500. Now it's almost 7,000 and still running very smoothly with only one moderator. I have a hard time keeping up these days, but the great crew here helps a lot. I don't have to hold my authority over everyone's head, and don't want to.

One other thing you may need to realize is that I know what to expect from these people and I know how each of them acts. Some are very straightforward, even blunt, others are more tactful. I take that into consideration, as well as firsthand knowledge of their frustrations and irritations when dealing with the diverse types of personalities we see here on a daily basis. Some are very easy and enjoyable to deal with, others can be trying.

I do what I feel is right and necessary. I try to handle touchy situations as tactfully as I can and still get results. I want this to be the best tech support forum on the Internet, and we're well on our way, but it takes time and effort. As stated above, anyone participating in the forums should be prepared to do so according to our customs and guidelines. You're on our turf, play by our rules. Those rules are few and basic. Act decent and don't cuss.

I still haven't figured out what the second topic you referred to is, so I won't go into that one. But as far as this one is concerned, it is closed. I did what I felt was best and I don't think I did anything that requires any apologies. The "spoon-fed" comment might not have been exceptionally tactful, but it was very close to the mark.

All in all I felt that the situation was handled better than similar ones in the past have been, it showed me that many of the people here have made an effort to contain the impulse to lash out with derogatory comments, profanity and insults, which is a step in the right direction. It will still take some effort, all we can do is keep trying.

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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

[Flick]

Sorry. I did not intend to offend anyone. I just should have kept my mouth shut. I now regret my posts and I shall leave the forum. Thanks for all the help you guys gave me. Sorry I didn't fit in.

[Whyzman]

Flick,

Apologizing and bowing out? Did I miss something? What is this all about?

I did a cursory check back through your postings and found nothing but what appeared to be "honest" questions and dialogue!

I don't see anything in Pete's response directed your way.

I would strongly suggest you reconsider departing. If there's something you need to discuss with Pete in a "side bar" to clear up any misunderstanding...I would certainly encourage you to do so!

IMHO you seem to me to be a model candidate for the PC Guide Forums...I hope you'll stick around! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
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Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

[sea69]

#1) Pete I am truly sorry to step up after you have spoken your "last word" very eloquent as usuall.. and thought you had actually locked this thread, but......

Flick- what are you talking about, what did you missunderstand??

Flick- come back!

I don't know why you feel like you have done anything??

I second whyzman's comments here.....don't know why you want to go??

did I miss something somewhere??

for that matter I'm certain that none of us want not_fred to go either just because some of us don't happen to agree with him on this one issue!

just don't stir up uneeded messes.. heh


http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/index.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 03-28-2002).]

[hiredgoonz]

Yeah, Flick, your comments were almost identical in concept to what Pete posted. I would bet none of what Pete said was directed at you...

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[Paleo Pete]

Flick: Those who have posted recently are correct, not a word of what I posted was directed at you. You have nothing to apologize for, as far as I know, and no reason to leave, especially under the impression that you did something that was not acceptable. Your comments in this topic were right on the mark, and I don't see one thing there that should deserve criticism, much less reprimand.

Sea No problem. I don't expect to have the "last word", I only want the bickering to cease. I have no problem with further comments being made, especially if they happen to be constructive. If I wanted my post to be the end of it I would close the topic.

I was very tired last night and not exactly thinking clearly, so I'm sure I probably rambled a bit more than necessary, but the main point of the whole thing is that this topic should not have been started. It was out of line, it dredged up an issue we thought was finished, and it started more controversy.

not_fred your comments and criticism should have been posted in either the original topic or the one related to it that bassman posted. Reopening this can of worms was a bad idea. I don't have any problem with anyone posting comments or criticism, if you think I or anyone else made a mistake you definitely have the right to share your opinion, but in this case it should have been done while the issue was still under active discussion, not after it was finished and put behind us.

We've had problems and conflicts before and always dealt with them. I've always tried to get everyone to handle situations of this type with as little animosity as possible, but that takes a lot of constraint, and a lot of time to get it to actually work. The people here are doing very well in that respect, the topic here was handled in a much more intelligent and reserved manner than others have been in the past. I see that as progress - a step in the right direction.

Maybe it's not perfect, maybe it's not suitable to some people, but the way things have been done here since I've been in the driver's seat seems to be working fairly well. I take a little credit for that, but most of the credit goes to the others who have given their cooperation and support to making the PC Guide Forums what they are now. They do a fine job, and when any one of them is under fire the rest defend them. With this one we've all been under fire, and none of us like it.

This should not have happened, the issue was closed and we thought it was behind us. I have read what everyone has posted, and I have to do as I always have, stand behind the people who have worked their butts off to make this the best bunch of forums on the Internet for well over a year. If I thought they were wrong I would not do so.

The original comment that started this whole mess may have been a bit blunt, but as I stated above, we have very diverse personalities here, some are much more soft spoken and/or tactful than others. The comment was, however, well deserved, even if it could have beem done in a more diplomatic manner. (No, that is not a reprimand, but could be considered a suggestion.) I will not back down from it, but I will ask again that the regular participants try and handle matters of this nature with tact and diplomacy. I know it will take time and effort, I know sometimes it's not easy to be decent, but I do ask that you folks continue to try.

And no, you don't have to wear pants. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

[hiredgoonz]

Amen, no pants...

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[YODA74]

I get caught sitting around in front of this computer without pants on my wife will have a fit http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@windows-sucks.com

[hiredgoonz]

Just tell her its forum rules http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
When all else fails, read the instructions.

Microsoft Knowledge Base (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;rid;kbinfo)

Drivers (http://www.driverguide.com)

Google (http://www.google.com)

[Paul Komski]

forum rules OK
dyslexia rules KO
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[tmwhalens]

this isn't the best way to get started on posting at these forums, but here goes a short one : i get VERY peeved when people make claims of someone "intending to start a flame war". judging the first message of this thread, i am confident that not_fred was NOT <quote>is an attempt by you to start a flame war</quote> intending to start a flame war, but rather to show that so many forums out there have just plain ol' ugly people that have no qualms about personally attacking others. so, stop the comments of "you're just trying to start a flame war" and listen to what the author is saying for a change. you won't feel so compelled to respond negatively http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[YODA74]

I don't know what it is But What does it take to just let this Thread lay!!!! Ya ever hear the old saying let dead dogs lay, Or If you lay down with dogs you'll get flea's.Pete Put a lock on this thing

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YODA74@windows-sucks.com
CCMR (http://www.dreamwater.net/tech/yoda74/index.html)

[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 04-13-2002).]

[andyswork@beci.net]

I agree with you yoda. This is my first post on this and will be my last.

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One day I will be a pro, Thanks Andy

[sea69]

I 3rd the proposed closing!

[Whyzman]

I'd Deep 6 it!

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
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Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

[ixl]

Done. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Charles M. Kozierok
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
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