Why should I switch to Vista?

[essayons]

Granted, I'm usually behind the curve when it comes to moving to new Windows platforms - I used Windows 98 until well into 2000 and didn't switch to XP until 2002 or 2003, I think. I just like to make sure bugs get ironed out; I don't mind beta testing, but I like to know that it's only a beta that I'm using. So I read early reports of how awful Vista was going to be, and decided I would hang onto XP for as long as I could.
Now, however, I have a couple things to think about - I need to get my son a new laptop, and good luck getting one with XP installed at this point; and I've seen people here (saphalline, to be specific) get angry about people bad-mouthing Microsoft products simply because they are from Microsoft. I am under the impression he was referring to Vista. (I should also consider the eventual withdrawal of support for XP Pro, whenever that will be.)
So I figure I should at least consider Vista - on my PC as well as the new laptop - that way I would be familiar with the interface in case my son had problems or questions. Hence I am asking for someone to point me toward an unbiased point of view on Vista's pros and cons; stating them here is fine, but I don't want anyone to necessarily spend a lot of time typing just for my sake when there could be sufficient information on the web to help me make an informed decision. Of course, personal points of view from the folks here are certainly welcome - I am familiar with your experience and expertise and welcome your input.

Thank you, as always!

[Gecko 1123]

I have Vista Ultimate on a 3 GB RAM quad-core gaming PC. I'll go for the cons first... Okay, one of the major drawbacks is the hit on speed. With a good processor and at least 1 GB of RAM, it'll run pretty smoothly. I got my computer pre-installed with Vista Ultimate, and its 500GB hard drive already had about 40GB in it, so look for a hard drive with at least 100GB if you're planning to have a lot of stuff on it. My computer is pretty new, so I haven't had much experience in BSODs (blue screens of death,) driver failures, etc. I'd recommend Vista Home Premium, because the Ultimate Edition that I have is loaded with a lot of stuff I don't need. Also, make sure you get the 32-bit Vista, as 64-bit might cause driver or program incompatibility problems. The last minor annoyances I've noticed on Vista are its UAC, which basically freezes your screen and generates a popup windows asking if you want to run a program whenever it might alter system settings; its cluttered start menu; and some mysterious problem with putting the computer in sleep mode... Now for the pros. It has some very useful programs, including new ones like affinity (which allows you to use task manager to assign a program to operate on a specific core of a multi-core PC.) There's also hybrid sleep, which puts your computer on standby while also saving your work to the hard drive like hibernate does, so if you lose power, your work is saved. Vista also has a gadget bar, where you can put some helpful gadgets like CPU meters, clocks, calculators, etc. for easy access (you can download new ones from the Windows Live Gallery.) It also comes with Internet Explorer 7, which has some great features like tabs on the browser bar, a google search box for easy searching, and a built-in popup blocker. It also has Windows Firewall, which was apparently not that bad (although I use the 60-day trial of McAfee firewall which came installed on my computer [I don't trust companies like Microsoft with certain things, because they try to do everything, including antivirus and firewall software.) Don't rely solely on Windows Defender either, use a third-party program. And last but not least, theres Aero. Aero is the new interface in Vista, and it looks great. There's Flip 3D, which puts your windows into a card-flipping interface, in real time (so you can see a movie playing on one window if you have your windows in Flip 3D.) There's also the glass windows, the second half of Aero. With all Vista versions besides Home Basic, you get it. You can see through the glass windows to whatever is behind it, and thats pretty cool.

I hope thats enough information to help you decide. Overall, Vista has more features, and you probably won't find a computer with XP pre-installed anyway (unless you get a custom.) Good luck with your new computers!

[Rick]

What is not listed above are the software and hardware issues

Like 1 and 2 year old versions of software that won't run or in some cases won't even install on Vista ( any version)
The same for NON supported hardware
1 year old laser printer. OPS we don't have or support Vista on that Model :(

Check the Vista and M$ site for the compatibility list and see how many of your current programs will need to be replaced and or upgraded
It gets costly real fast

BTW..
Some of the older M$ Office versions won't even install on Vista
If you do get them to install they are buggy and crash

As stated above he is running a Gaming system
So look at the home office stuff you use first before you take the headlong dive into vista

[mjc]

If you are into using your machine for media, there is a whole other set of issues...new DRM schemes.

The Vista DRM will prevent playback of video if certain conditions are not met (or reduce the quality dramatically).

[saphalline]

Hahahaa! :D Yeah, I don't like it when people hate something just for the sake of hating it. That's totally illogical IMO for something as technical as computer technologies.

However, just because it's illogical to dislike Vista simply because it comes from M$ doesn't mean there are not also logical reasons to dislike it! There are many things you need to know about Vista before you even attempt to use it...


(1) - First and foremost IMO are the extremely high hardware requirements! If you want Vista as an OS to run anywhere near the speed at which you are accustomed to running WinXP, you'll need some hefty hardware! Minimum that I've found is a dual-core CPU, 1GB of dual-channel RAM, a dedicated DX9c or DX10 vid card with at least 128MB on it, and a SATA 150/300 HDD that is 120GB+. Any hardware that can't measure up to this (including most notebooks) will not run Vista nearly as fast as it can run WinXP. That doesn't mean it will be dog-slow, just that you'll experience a performance hit that will induce a flash-back to your first Win98 upgrade. ;) But as long as the hardware is close to what I described, Vista will run OK.

Now, all that being said, the more the merrier! Especially as it pertains to RAM! I've found Vista to require almost 4 times as much RAM as WinXP at its various "happy spots". WinXP, for instance, runs OK at 256MB of RAM. This is now 1GB for Vista. WinXP runs well at 512MB or 1GB of RAM. This is now 2GB for Vista. See the pattern?

Also, as it pertains to the new Aero interface, you need a modern DX9/SM 1.x vid card to even run the limited mode of Aero! Since Vista comes with DX10 and is only able to run DX9 in an emulator, any render calls made by the OS are done in DX10. So if you have a DX9 vid card, the DX10 render calls are emulated to DX9 before being executed, forcing Aero to run in the minimum compatibility WGF 1.0 mode. Upgrading to a bona-fide DX10 vid card makes a big difference here! With true DX10 hardware, the render calls don't need to be emulated - it's all done in true WGF 2.0 DX10 mode. This alone improves performance in the OS by leaps and bounds because the OS itself (we're talking basic windows here) is entirely 3D! So in essence, you need a gaming-level vid card just to put windows on the screen! :eek: The vid card requirement alone makes Vista extremely power-hungry and elevates its costly implementation on any older system. Like say, if you have an AGP system. Bummer! You can still get a DX10 vid card on AGP, but it costs more since the move to PCIe.

On the plus side, if you have the hardware for it, Vista runs pretty d@mn well! :D


(2) - Program compatibility is broken in Vista. Pure and simple. M$ essentially re-wrote Windows as an OS when they released Vista. It works differently from all previous Windows versions. In fact, it's so different that Win95 and Win2K look like identical twins by comparison! :eek: Don't get lulled into a false sense of security by picking Vista 32-bit so that your programs will work. The fact of the matter is that Vista breaks compatibility, not the 32-bit vs 64-bit cr@p! I've seen so few programs that work on Vista 32-bit but not Vista 64-bit that I can count them on one hand. But there are literally pages and pages of programs that don't work on Vista period! So right out of the gate, if you have older programs, listen to the others. Just write them off of the Vista scene. Most of the big programs that were released in 2006 or later have patches to run in Vista. Anything else is a no-go. Even if you can get an older program to install in Vista, the mere act of running it can cause a BSOD!


(3) - Vista has a ton of "features" that are so annoying they approach the limitations of the definition of "useful"! The UAC, for instance, was one of those things I turned off as soon as all my drivers were installed! It's such an annoying pile of junk - it's an attempt at creating the sort of password/user account security that you see in *NIX. Except you can't do that to the average Windows user because they don't know *NIX! :rolleyes: So in the end, it's mostly useless and definitely annoying. If you know better than to click on every pop-up and say YES to every prompt box, then you don't need the UAC. You just need appropriate 3rd-party security programs that you can control yourself.


(4) - The driver issues for Vista on modern hardware have been problematic overall. Nothing was really all that stable or usable until mid-summer, and it wasn't until the last month or so that Vista 32-bit and 64-bit both become really good in this respect. So as of right now, the driver scene for Vista on modern hardware has just gotten good! So now is a good time to consider Vista! :p

As for the 32-bit vs 64-bit thing, I like Vista 64-bit. There are indeed going to be issues with a 64-bit Windows OS in terms of compatibility with older programs and hardware. However, given the fact that Vista really only runs well with the latest & greatest regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit, I give the nod to the more advanced version. RAM limitations for the 32-bit version are the same as that for WinXP or Win2K - 4GB max, with only 3GB usable by programs. Vista 64-bit, however, can natively support much more RAM! Take a look at this (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/editions/64bit.mspx) and see for yourself. Even Vista Ultimate 32-bit has the 4GB RAM limit, but move up to Vista Home Premium 64-bit and you've got access to 16GB of RAM! This may seem over the top right now, but consider that Vista doesn't hit its stride until 2GB of RAM (again, regardless of 32-bit or 64-bit) and that modern mobo's support up to 8GB of RAM. Vista 64-bit is all about the future! It's about the most high-end hardware you can get right now and 3 years from now. The 64-bit versions make more sense to me in the long run. If you're going to make the leap to Vista and lose out on a lot of compatibility right now, you might as well spend your money on a version that can grow with you! The 32-bit versions of Vista don't do this. And now that the driver issues are stable and solid on both versions, why go 32-bit anymore?


(5) - The main question I get asked when I tell people that I run Vista is "what is it good for?" (Insert song here.) Well, they don't all phrase it exactly like that, but basically I get asked about Vista's usability. I won't lie here - Vista can't do much. Since it broke compatibility with nearly everything that WinXP can run, there isn't much that runs on Vista. Heck, as a gamer, the only thing I really use Vista for is surfing the web and playing games! And at that point, the first half of what I said can be done by just about any OS developed in the last decade! Heck, you can surf the web and post on the forums using a live OS on a disk-less computer! It's not all that hard. So in reality, considering the requirements and usefulness and 64-bitness of Vista, I pretty much just tell people that Vista is a gaming machine right now. Hardly any productivity or "work"-related programs run on it (aside from Office 11/12) and it uses DX10 by default! It's the perfect gaming OS! :cool: But it's a horrible Windows OS replacement for WinXP! M$ changed so much. Vista really isn't on the same upgrade path that you might be used to with previous Windows versions. In fact, if you're thinking about taking the plunge into Vista simply because it's the next Windows version, you'll be very disappointed!

In my own talks with non-gamers, I've pretty much found that Vista is merely an experiment. Just one of those "let's see what it's like" sort of things. For myself, I've taken a drastic turn in my OS usage lately. My main gaming system is a dual-boot of WinXP Pro and Vista Ultimate 64-bit. This is the system I use for gaming and the ocassional web surfing (as I find time). Other than that, I don't do much else. Work is done on other computers. I don't clutter my main gaming system with anything other than games! :p Of course, this is not something that everyone can do. Not everyone has 2 or more computers, much less a monster system and several tertiary systems! So I guess it's a bit of a risk diving into Vista if you don't have a back-up system. Or at least a dual-boot like I do. Vista can't do much besides gaming - not that I've found anyway. So "upgrade" to Vista at your own risk!


As to the issue of your son's upcoming new notebook, I'd suggest a custom order. WinXP is not dead yet, and will probably be used until well after it dies! Hehe. I may even be using it a few years from now since Vista can't play all my old games. But also consider the issue of program compatibility if your son is going off to college. I've seen quite a few colleges, even big-league schools, that use VPN clients that don't run on Vista! And don't think that you can automatically take a Vista notebook, wipe the HDD, and install WinXP yourself! Ask Rick about that one. He got caught in the BIOS vs EFI trap! You can always install Vista on any new notebook that comes equipped with WinXP, but the reverse is becoming less and less true. Do a custom order notebook and save the Vista testing for gamers like myself. ;)

[PrntRhd]

Saphalline,
That was probably the best answer I have seen regarding Vista to date.
:)

[Rick]

Downgrading to XP is a nightmare
IF it can be at all

Anything from Vista ONLY bios to lack of XP drivers for the main components of the Laptop


You asked Why you should get vista

I think by now it's obvious that most of us think going with Vista is a bad Idea.
An should only be done if you absolutely must

[mrrb]

There really isn't any good reason as far as I'm concerned. I purchased a laptop that came with Vista on it and found it so slow and challanging to use that when away from home I would use the laptop to remote access my desktop with XP and work from there. Unfortunately, my desktop died due to a virus so now I'm stuck using my laptop and Vista. When I resurrect my desktop, it will not be with Vista!!
I've read many a forum post on this subject and most who use their computer for productivity (not just for gaming and multimedia) are all of the same opinion- stay with XP!

Sue

[essayons]

WOW. I'm sure glad I asked! I might have, out of desperation, just gotten a Vista-loaded laptop and tried overwriting it with XP. Hadn't thought about custom orders, even though I've only ever built my own - can't get any more custom than that! But laptops are out of my comfort zone - not even sure how easy it would be to get laptop components.
Thanks a lot for the outstanding and comprehensive explanations, everyone!
My desktop hardware is good enough to handle Vista (I'd have to check on the vid card first, and add a bit of RAM) - but even so, I can't imagine any reason to upgrade or even dual-boot, unless I needed to become familiar with the OS for a job. Hopefully it won't come to that.

[mjc]

To sum up...Vista isn't quite ready for prime time, yet...although the marketing department would have us believe otherwise.

[saphalline]

Saphalline,
That was probably the best answer I have seen regarding Vista to date.Oh man, that's almost sad! :p And to think we didn't even cover the DRM cr@p that mjc mentioned! :rolleyes: Check out our discussions on that here (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=58955) (further down on the second page).

Hadn't thought about custom orders [...] But laptops are out of my comfort zone - not even sure how easy it would be to get laptop components.We're not saying you have to build your own from scratch like a desktop :p just a normal custom order like you can do on the Dell website when you hit the "customize" button. You can walk into any Best Buy or whatever and ask to custom order a notebook, whereupon you'll be wined and dined :D through the process of picking a Compaq base platform (for instance) and choosing your hardware specs from a selection of 3 choices each. You know, like you can pick a Core 2 Duo T2300 or T2400 or T2600, and you can get 512MB of RAM or up to 2GB of RAM, and a 100GB hard drive or 160GB hard drive, WinXP Pro or Vista Home Premium, etc. You pick the parts from a limited selection of components that will work with that base platform of notebook, and then you pay money and wait for it to be delivered to the store from the manufacturer.

Much easier than attempting to install your own portable mobo! :D