Solid Gaming PCs?

[mxer394]

I'm getting a new gaming PC (my old one got fried in an electrical storm).

I'm no genius when it comes to electronics. I know your basic stuff, but before I go and drop 1000 bucks on something that might not suit my needs, I decided to go to the experts. My budget is around 1000 bucks. I need a solid platform, great processing and loading speed, the ability to play online, and a good graphics card. To be honest, the looks aren't important to me, but if it comes with a nice case, that's ok. It goes unsaid that it must have sufficient cooling and power to play games on. I've looked at some of these so far, but alot of the things on the custom build guide confuse me.

I'm planning on having about 30-40 games on it, and as I said above, online game play. It also needs to get by for some school things. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc.

Any suggestions?

Thanks for all the help.

[Ajmukon]

umm.. next month, both AMD and Itel are putting out new CPUs and Nvidia and ATI are putting out new GPUs.

So many upgrades are coming out next month, that it makes no sense to buy anything this month. Wait- it is only a few more weeks.

[mxer394]

Yes, I realize that. However, since I have a very limited budget (compared with some of the 5-7 thousand dollar rigs), I doubt I will be able to afford these newer GPUs.

Thank you, however. I wasn't planning on buying anything for a while anyway. Any particular brand of PC you recommend? I've seen so many online while doing some research, it would be good to know which ones to go to.

(Sorry if I'm asking to much, but...) Also, there are some other things I was wondering about. It would probably be pretty useful to understand some of the specs for different components of the PC.

Like the difference between getting different power supplies. Obviously it provides more power, but when would I need to get a power supply with more power?

The CPU. I understand what it is and what it does, but the numbers in the description confuse me. For example:
Socket AM2 AMD Athlon™64 X2 4000+ Dual-Core CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology

What do the 64 and the 4000 signify?

And with the memory, what does dual channel memory mean?

Like I said, I'm not well versed with PCs, but what better time to learn than now?

Thanks for all the help, great message board!

[saphalline]

It also needs to get by for some school things. Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc.If a computer can play games, it can do just about any other PC task! :D

You mentioned something about buying? So you will be buying your new gaming system instead of building? This is an important distinction. We tend to be more build-oriented around here, although we can still help you with a pre-built. It's just not as much fun! :D

since I have a very limited budget (compared with some of the 5-7 thousand dollar rigs), I doubt I will be able to afford these newer GPUs.$5000!? :eek: Geez, where have you been shopping? Dell's website? :p

Buying a gaming system can be so much more expensive than building a gaming system. That's why so many gamers end up building. A $5000 Dell XPS unit, for instance, can usually be built for less than $2500. The higher you go, the more disparate the numbers. However, in your budget range, you are unlikely to overpay too much relative to the complications involved in building vs buying. (Unless you already know what you're doing, it's better to buy than build.)

As to the new upcoming hardware, you'll want to pay attention. This wave that's coming next month isn't the new $600 vid cards and $1200 CPU's. Next month's releases will be new $250 vid cards and $300-900 CPU's. It's worth waiting for the new stuff for the majority of people. Keep in mind that this forums is not comprised of rich little elitist brats that chastise people for not spending $7000 on a gaming PC! ;) We're mostly budget-conscious gamers, and we look out for those like us. We make up the majority of the economy, so when we say wait, we mean the majority of people should wait. This includes you!

Like the difference between getting different power supplies. Obviously it provides more power, but when would I need to get a power supply with more power?PSU's are not generally an upgradable component! :p You only really need to get a new one when your old one is really old and doesn't meet modern specs, or your old one burns out and you have to replace it. The PSU is much more of an investment that is intended to last you through several core upgrades. The idea is not to approach the PSU choice with a notion of when will I need more power? but to think more along the lines of I want to have plenty of power for future needs. A good quality PSU with plenty of power will serve you well for many years. There are tons of technical considerations that go along with the PSU, so ask more questions if you want to know more.

For example:
Socket AM2 AMD Athlon™64 X2 4000+ Dual-Core CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology

What do the 64 and the 4000 signify?The 64 in this case means it is a 64-bit capable CPU. Every modern CPU is 64-bit, but the 64 is part of the actual CPU family name so it is still used (the very first 64-bit x86 CPU family, actually). There also other naming conventions for other AMD CPU families, and Intel is of course also different.

The 4000+ in this case represents something less tangible. It represents what's called a performance model number. These are really only useful for comparing two CPU's from the same family in terms of their relative performance. No definitive performance metrics can be inferred from the 4000+ of AMD to the E6600 of Intel, for example. They're just not the same. If you want a run-down of CPU naming conventions, just ask.

And with the memory, what does dual channel memory mean?Dual-channel RAM means that two sticks of RAM are used in parallel to deliver more RAM bandwidth. Theoretically, it could be twice as much, but this is not true in practice. It's usually only 75-83% faster, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper than trying to make faster RAM! :D

RAM these days is bought in what's called a matched pair or dual-channel kit, consisting of two identical sticks of RAM that were matched-up and tested at the FAB to work well together. Thus you will always see RAM configurations in modern performance-oriented PC's in even numbers. 2 x 1GB or 4 x 512MB or whatever. The RAM must be paired up by these kits and must all be the same for maximum performance and efficiency. Far better to have 4 sticks of DDR2-800 than 2 sticks of DDR2-667 and 2 sticks of DDR2-1066!

[Ajmukon]

yeah- if you can wait mxer394, then WAIT. the NEW components will be CHEAPER AND [generally] FASTER than what is out right now.

i just do not want you shooting your foot saying "I should have waited a few more weeks" like i did when i bought my PC.....

[dafink]

I know your feeling mxer394. Want to get a new pc to play Crysis, Hellgate, Gears of War and all that but don't want to spend too much cash.

I can install hardware but never wired up a mobo or started from scratch like that. Usually waiting is a bad idea because you get stuck in that rut of continually waiting but they said the same thing to me so hopefully it'll be worth it.

That and the fact that there'll bound to be some thanksgiving/holiday deals going on it'll be interesting.

[Ajmukon]

generally, if i was to buy a new computer, i would do so at Christmas- the deals are usually worth it, and if they are not, you are getting the better stuff than ever. Yeah sure waiting is bad, but with SOO MUCH STUFF coming out in November (Most by Nov. 10th ) the market will be heavily affected. Intel's New CPUs, AMD's NEW CPUs, Nvidia's NEW GPUs, ATI's NEW GPUs, new motherbaords, new RAM chipsets (DDR3 will become cheaper), Faster everything.....

i would wait- and i RARELY tell an individual to wait.

[mxer394]

Well, it's going to be a Christmas gift, so there is plenty of time to shop around.

And, to be honest, I have the technical expertise of a tire, so it's a bit difficult for me to build my own system. I'm starting classes on computer science and engineering, but for now, that really isn't an option. After looking around, I found some brands and PCs that look promising.

The Ronin NX2 gaming PC
http://www.hipepc.com/store/pc/configurePrd.asp?idProduct=695

And Cyberpower has several PC's that are within my price range that look rather promising. The Mega Special III in particular. But still, I have several months to keep looking.

Are there any other brands or makes that would be a good choice? I'm open to any suggestions.

[artp209]

The Ronin NX2 gaming PC
http://www.hipepc.com/store/pc/configurePrd.asp?idProduct=695


Just for comparison purposes, this computer upgraded to similar specs as my self-build with parts from NewEgg is about $500 more than the $950 that I spent.

[Ajmukon]

you can buy full systems from NEWegg:
these systems will tend to be more "upgradeable"
http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=10&name=Desktop-PCs

note: if you intend to do gaming, the lower end Geforce 8's are NOT very good =>
only the 8800 is any decent. but the new Chips next month my nullify that statement....
oh, and you WILL want at least 2 gb RAM! (see link redone!)
http://www.hipepc.com/store/pc/configurePrd.asp?idProduct=695

i suggest you look around this month, see what you want- go above your limit and wait until next month (preferably December) to buy and it should be below your limit then...

[deddard]

The thing about waiting isn't that there is a chance of getting the latest super-duper gear at a cheaper price, but the fact that it forces the current generation's prices down.

Christmas does throw up some good offers, and if AMD and Intel do actually release their gear in time for christmas, there is going to be a stock of what is currently 'cutting edge' gear the suppliers will want to get rid of.

[saphalline]

I consider the main point of waiting to be one of being able to buy into the latest platforms for future upgradeability. If AM2 is being summarily replaced by AM2+, why buy AM2 unless it is intended for a non-upgradeable cheapie system? And if Intel is releasing a Yorkfield with a better price/performance ratio than a 1333 Conroe, what's the point of buying the older tech other than price concerns alone? And in the case of the new vid cards, we're going to see new mid-range releases, not the replacements for the HD 2900 XT and 8800 Ultra.

For anyone looking at the mid-range market for a performance-oriented system, waiting is a good thing primarily for the new hardware, not so that prices can go down on the current hardware. That's the difference, IMO, between mid-range and budget.

[mxer394]

Well, what I'm getting from this is one key thing:
Don't buy until about December (wasn't planning on it, but now even more so).

So like I said, keep throwing brands out there (both to look at and stay away from). As far as a video card goes, what would be a good one to look at?

Also, any ways to shave some money off the price while not really hampering performance?

[Ajmukon]

1)Video Card: Right now, Geforce 8800 320MB at least
2) Build it your self: it really isn't as hard as people make it seem and it may even be fun (that and we will help you every step of the way ;) )
OR
go with a slower dual core processor-- the Video Card is the most important for gaming component in that regard... processor not so much

[mxer394]

Also, what does having two video cards do. Is this advised for gaming, or is it just a perk? And I know the brands probably have to match, but what about the type?
Ex:
NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT 256MB 16X PCI Express
and
NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTX 768MB 16X PCI Express

Would this work (and not as in work well, but simply work in the sense of compatibility.

[saphalline]

Actually, you have that backwards. The brand of vid card doesn't have to be the same for SLI to work. The amount of RAM on each vid card doesn't even have to match. However, the GPU's must match. Ie, 7900 GS with 7900 GS.

So in your example, an 8600 GT with an 8800 GTX would not work in SLI. They could only be used as two independent vid cards.

[Ajmukon]

EDIT- Saph beat me to it and corrected me on the problem

[saphalline]

Hahahaaa! I'm fast like lightning! :cool:

[mxer394]

Thanks. I could have made a big mistake with that one.

But still.

What does having two working in tandem accomplish? More efficiency? Better graphics?

[Ajmukon]

both only in games- otherwise, it is not worth the extra expense

[saphalline]

SLI makes use of two vid cards in tandem to theoretically double gaming performance. Much like dual-channel RAM uses two RAM sticks, or RAID 0 uses two hard drives.

However, just like the other examples, the raw performance gain very rarely achieves "double", though SLI does come closer than any other analogy. Furthermore, games must support SLI in order to benefit from the two vid cards at once idea, so it's not a freebie at all times. SLI is also much more stringent in terms of chipset support, PSU requirements, and driver manipulation (if you forget to turn on SLI, you don't get SLI! :p).

In general, I've always recommended that gamers only use SLI for higher end vid cards and only if you can add a second identical vid card within the next 6-9 months. If you can't afford a second one within that time frame, chances are the vid card you chose will be out of favor and out of production. Take a look at those who bought an 8800 GTX back in November of last year. If they haven't bought a second one by now, what's the point? :p For about the same price as a single GTX these days, you can get TWO GT's in SLI for 80% more performance (than a single GTX) and probably less power consumption between the two of them! It's crazy how fast this stuff moves...

[66miranda]

Asus G1S-A1 Core 2 Duo Notebook:
CORE 2 DUO T7500 2.2GHZ / 2GB / 160GB HDD / 15.4" WSXGA+ / DVD SUPER-MULTI / VISTA PREMIUM / 802.11AGN WIRELESS
You can have a look at it on line many stores have it .

[mxer394]

Thanks miranda, but to be honest, I'm not looking for a notebook. I'm leaning more towards a desktop.

Also, Intel or Athlon. Athlon seems to be noticeably cheaper, but Intel is alot better known, so which one should be my preference?

[saphalline]

Intel is one company, AMD is another. Intel makes Pentium, Celeron, and Core CPU's; AMD makes Athlon, Sempron, and Turion CPU's.

As to which one you should choose, you should choose Intel if you're buying a new CPU right now at this moment. However, the whole point of waiting is because AMD is releasing a new core revision that promises to knock out current Intel CPU's! Then again, Intel already has the infrastructure for their new upcoming core revision, so you could simply upgrade if you wanted.

It's your money so it's up to you, but we recommend waiting to see the actual performance charts and verdicts on the new hardware.

[mxer394]

Okay. I might have my setup now. Just to summarize.

My needs are: high gaming capabilities (graphics, good processing speed, etc). About 30-40 games on the computer.
I don't care about noise.
It needs to cool itself sufficiently.
It needs to be under 1150 dollars.
I don't need to buy a monitor, just the computer, speakers, a keyboard, and a mouse.
Here's the setup:

Case: Nzxt Apollo Gaming Tower Case

Power Supply: 500 Watt -- NZXT PF-500 Power Supply

Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6550 (2x 2.33GHz/4MB L2 Cache/1333FSB)

Motherboard: Asus P5KPL-VM Intel G31 Chipset w/6-channels, Gb LAN, S-ATA 3Gb/s, USB 2.0, Single PCI-E MB

Memory: 2048MB [1024MB X2] DDR2-800 PC6400 Memory Module

Video Card: Nvidia GeForce 8800GTS 320 MB

320 GB HARD DRIVE

Disc Drive: 18X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive

Operating System: Windows Vista 64 bit

Speakers: 600W PMPO 3 PCS Super Bass Subwoofer Speaker System

The keyboard and mouse are really trivial.

How would this work? It comes out to $1101 on ibuypower.com, so it stays in budget. One of my larger concerns is power consumption. Would 500 watts be enough. And the only other thing I am worried about is the video card.
Should I get the Nvidia GeForce 8800GTS 320 MB or the Nvidia GeForce 8800GT 512 MB?

Thanks guys, you've been an enormous help already. Keep up the good work

[artp209]

Should I get the Nvidia GeForce 8800GTS 320 MB or the Nvidia GeForce 8800GT 512 MB?


The 8800GT 512MB if you can get it.

[mxer394]

Why exactly. I mean, I believe it's the right choice myself, but the 8800GTS 320MB is 51 dollars more. Now, price may not be a guarantee of quality, but why is the cheaper one better in this case?"

[artp209]

but why is the cheaper one better in this case?"

I wouldn't know about quality without having complete specs on the cards, but it was my understanding that they are generally selling at about the same price. The new 8800GT is causing quite a sensation with it's price and performance. I'm upset because I have an 8800GTS.

[mxer394]

Any second opinions?

Because the 8800 GT 512MB is selling for around 50 dollars cheaper than the 8800GTS 320MB.

[Ajmukon]

8800 GT 512- 80% the performance of the 8800ultra 640 MB, 1/2 the price and better than the 88000GTS 320
there is a review spec chart to see somewhere- dafinks thread i think

[George Hallam]

the 8800Gt is massively faster these benchmarks should answer your questions

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1682/benchjga0.png

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2492/benchgju5.png

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/1517/benchckg9.png

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9317/benchdfd0.png

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2690/benchbfp9.png

usually price does usually show performance but not in this case

[George Hallam]

just beat me :p well there they are anyway

[mxer394]

Wow.

You know, I've been to several message boards for different things over the years, but by and far, PC guide has to be the best. I mean, every time I ask a question, boom, it gets answered by people who know what they're talking about.

Thanks guys.

Also, some little birdie told me that for gaming, I should get a better motherboard. Any suggestions?

[artp209]

If you check the Intel website, you will find that P31 is a mainstream chipset, the P35 is a performance/mainstream chipset and the X38 is a performance chipset. If cost is not considered, a motherboard with the X38 chipset would be the most desirable (and most upgradable). The P35 would certainly be more desirable than the P31 chipset motherboard from a performance and upgrading standpoint.

[wickedestman]

ya i agree with the fact that questions do get answered here thanks so much guys ;) and wat artp209 is true.. due to the face that i had to read a whole lot the real board for you is a p35 eh.. the x38 boards might push your budget ( like the position i was in!) like i chose an ASUS P5K Deluxe... and bro the 8800GT is the way... jus try and get a hold on one cuz they are selling out FAST!!!

[mxer394]

Okay, now operating system. I was thinking Vista, but I've heard around that Vista isn't really much better than XP. They're basically the same price (I was going to get the 64 bit Vista), so which should I choose?

[mjc]

OK, here's the deal with Vista...

For just about every task Vista sucks...except one, gaming.

That's right, Vista is great for games. It is because of DX10. Most modern games are being made for and have the best 'look' under DX10. So if your primary purpose for a new rig is gaming...go with Vista. If it is for other stuff...stick with XP.

[Ajmukon]

agreed with mjc

[mxer394]

Well, yeah, I'm using the PC for gaming (probably quite a bit), but it's still got to serve as a PC for doing work on.

[artp209]

A lot of people love to hate Vista, and in many ways it is deserved. I put Vista 32 bit on my latest build used for general computing and games, and I am satisfied. After some tweaking, this computer starts faster than my XP machine (mostly due to hardware improvements). I fear using the 64 bit version if the computer is for anything but gaming. If you are going to use a lot of older accessories and software, XP may have an advantage.

[saphalline]

I solved the OS problem by dual-booting. WinXP Pro (standard 32-bit version) and Vista Ultimate 64-bit (although I didn't have to pay full price for this). If I need to do work (like right now) I'm in WinXP. Most of my latest games are on Vista. The rest of my systems are a mix of WinXP and Linux, many of them with multiple boot options. It's the thing to do these days! :D

If you can only afford one (at least for now) then choose carefully! Vista can do work stuff in its most basic sense. Like Firefox and M$ Office 2007 and OOo and all that. It will also work fine with any printer device released within the last 11 months. Most programs that are still supported have also been patched to work with Vista. But by and large, Vista is a new and only new OS - older software doesn't like to work. The flip side is that Vista is the only OS in existence that has DX10. This is the major sticking point for gamers. No Vista, no DX10. Period. M$ controls DirectX and they made this decision long ago. So choose wisely and take as much time as you need.


Oh, by the way...

8800 GTS
90nm process
96 SP's
20 RBE's
320-bit RAM bus width

8800 GT
65nm process
112 SP's
24 RBE's
256-bit RAM bus width

The feature sets are ultimately mixed, but the 8800 GT is more power efficient and can deliver better gaming performance per clock than the 8800 GTS. The drop in RAM bandwidth is considered to be an acceptable feature loss for a better win in gaming performance. Plus, they're cheaper to make.

[mxer394]

Man.

Well, this is a sticking point. I have quite a few older programs that I need to run on this computer.

I bought Microsoft Office about a year ago, and installed it on this computer. It has one install left, and I don't want to have to buy it again. My printer and monitor are both around 3 years old, and I really don't want to have to buy those.

Basically, alot of the things that I'm using are going to be older than Vista. What types of hardware, etc, wouldn't be compatible with it?

And man, bummer about DX10. This is going to be difficult. But I'm open to ideas. Any other operating systems that are on par with Vista or XP? And I read that a 64 bit OS would need at least 4 Gigs of Ram to operate smoothly. I am only going to have 2 Gigs, so would I be better off with a 32 bit OS?

Also, another component related question. Mother boards. I have the choice of:
(Quad-Core FSB1333) EVGA nForce 680i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard
or
(Quad-Core FSB1333) Asus P5K Intel P35 CrossFire Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2/800 Mainboard w/GbLAN,USB2.0,IEEE1394,&7.1Audio

Which would be better for gaming purposes? The latter is 22 dollars cheaper than the former, and is "Crossfire Ready". What is Crossfire?

And thanks Saph, I'd already decided on the 8800 GT, but a recommend from you seals the deal.

And one other thing I've been looking at: over clocking. What is it, how is it done, how difficult is it, and what would I get out of over clocking?

Thanks., PC Guide.

[mxer394]

Never mind about the Crossfire question. Just to make sure though, it's ATI's equivalent of SLI?

[Ajmukon]

yes- although, you can have FOUR GPUs in Crossfire, but right now, only two in SLI

[Cataclysm]

Man.

Well, this is a sticking point. I have quite a few older programs that I need to run on this computer.

I bought Microsoft Office about a year ago, and installed it on this computer. It has one install left, and I don't want to have to buy it again. My printer and monitor are both around 3 years old, and I really don't want to have to buy those.

Basically, alot of the things that I'm using are going to be older than Vista. What types of hardware, etc, wouldn't be compatible with it?

And man, bummer about DX10. This is going to be difficult. But I'm open to ideas. Any other operating systems that are on par with Vista or XP? And I read that a 64 bit OS would need at least 4 Gigs of Ram to operate smoothly. I am only going to have 2 Gigs, so would I be better off with a 32 bit OS?

Also, another component related question. Mother boards. I have the choice of:
(Quad-Core FSB1333) EVGA nForce 680i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard
or
(Quad-Core FSB1333) Asus P5K Intel P35 CrossFire Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2/800 Mainboard w/GbLAN,USB2.0,IEEE1394,&7.1Audio

Which would be better for gaming purposes? The latter is 22 dollars cheaper than the former, and is "Crossfire Ready". What is Crossfire?

And thanks Saph, I'd already decided on the 8800 GT, but a recommend from you seals the deal.

And one other thing I've been looking at: over clocking. What is it, how is it done, how difficult is it, and what would I get out of over clocking?

Thanks., PC Guide.

Overclocking is making your components run faster. For example, if I had a 2.4 GHz processor I could overclock it to run at 3.0 GHz. Overclocking (OCing) should only be attempted by someone who is very knowledgeable and "done their homework" so so speak, as OCing can kill whatever you're trying to make run faster.

In short, unless you know what you're doing DO NOT ATTEMPT. It's not even really necessary. Unless you're willing to pay $300 for a new 8800GT if you fry yours attempting to OC it, I'd say forget it.

[mxer394]

I doubt I'd fall into the "very knowledgable" category just yet. But it's always good to know...

I'll stick with SLI. I can just barely fit one 8800GT into my budget. It'll be a while before I can get another. but I'm planning on getting one within 6 months. And just as a question, the install for a second graphics card: is it hard? As in, can someone with a basic understanding of computer hardware do it?

I'm almost done, just have to work out a few kinks on my OS.

For 2 gigs of RAM, I should only get a 32 bit OS, right?

[Cataclysm]

I doubt I'd fall into the "very knowledgable" category just yet. But it's always good to know...

I'll stick with SLI. I can just barely fit one 8800GT into my budget. It'll be a while before I can get another. but I'm planning on getting one within 6 months. And just as a question, the install for a second graphics card: is it hard? As in, can someone with a basic understanding of computer hardware do it?

I'm almost done, just have to work out a few kinks on my OS.

For 2 gigs of RAM, I should only get a 32 bit OS, right?

If you plan on upgrading later, I'd go with a 64-bit so you can get more RAM if need be.
If you plan on maxing out at 3.5 gigs or less of RAM, stick with a 32 bit.

OEM Vista Home Premium 64 bit is only $100 at Newegg. OEM means its stripped down- not feature-wise, but has only cardboard and shrink wrap packaging, cannot be installed on multiple computers, no manual, and no free tech support. I personally feel its worth it, PCGuide can be your tech support =)

[saphalline]

And I read that a 64 bit OS would need at least 4 Gigs of Ram to operate smoothly. I am only going to have 2 Gigs, so would I be better off with a 32 bit OS?What you read was either wrong or talking in a specific context. Considering what I've heard and read online, either one could be true! :p

64-bit operating systems have been around for a long time, so that statement is just plain wrong in the grand scheme of things. In terms of modern 64-bit OS'es for PC's, there are plenty of Linux distro's out there that would run fine with 512MB of RAM (and possibly less). The one OS that makes that statement somewhat true is... *drum roll* ...Vista! ;)

Vista doesn't hit its stride until 1GB of RAM. In fact, 1GB is the amount of RAM necessary to run Vista itself (32-bit or 64-bit) at any sort of speed that we now consider to be acceptable! And if you're gaming on Vista, then 2GB is needed! Or more. Now here's where the 32-bit vs 64-bit issue comes into play...

You can't play games on Vista until you hit that magical 2GB mark (which is honestly becoming true of WinXP with modern games as well, but that's another story...). But 32-bit versions of Windows max out the RAM at 4GB! And even then, hardware limitations in 32-bit mode can limit that to 3.5GB or even down to 3GB. And Windows in 32-bit mode can't use anything past the 3GB mark for programs of any sort, only the kernel can use the RAM between 3GB and 4GB. But Vista 64-bit is different. It can support much more RAM! Vista Home Premium 64-bit goes up to 16GB of RAM! Vista Ultimate 64-bit goes up to 128GB of RAM! :eek: So you can see how the 64-bit versions really help out in this area. Yes, Vista requires a lot of RAM. But, Vista 64-bit versions also support much more RAM. So whereas WinXP and Vista 32-bit like 1GB and 2GB of RAM for modern gaming respectively, they also top out at only 3GB of RAM for gaming usage. Vista 64-bit needs 2GB of RAM, but can support a whole lot more! This is why I describe Vista as the Windows version for the future. It's causing a lot of problems for a lot of people right now, but a year from now, it will be more acceptable. And two years from now it may even default (for Windows). And as we continue to creep forward in the area of hardware and RAM support, Vista 64-bit versions are the ones that will expand with us.

[mxer394]

That's the big thing. I'm not going to ever go up that high in RAM. If I can scrape the money, maybe 4 gigs. But that's down the road. Right now, I have to stick with 2 gigs of RAM.

So, knowing all this, what should I choose? 32 or 64 bit?

[Ajmukon]

64 Bit- 4 Gigs of RAM is cheap and will significantly improve performance

[mxer394]

Well...


I'll see if I can't drop a bit off the price for 4 gigs, but I doubt I'll be able to.

If I can't, I assume that I should get 32 bit?

Also. Better processor,
AMD Phenom™ X4 9500 Quad-Core CPU w/ HyperTransport Technology
or
(Sckt775)Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6850 CPU @ 3.00GHz 1333FSB 4MB L2 Cache 64-bit

Because the AMD is the top AMD on Cyberpower, but the Intel is middle range (at least according to price).

[saphalline]

I'm not going to ever go up that high in RAM.Hahahaa! :D Oh my God!! This made me laugh at loud! :p

Ok ok, not to make fun of you or anything, but are you telling us that you are literally never going to have a computer system with more than 4GB of RAM for the rest of your life? ;) I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I just thought it was funny when I first read it.

Which of course brings me to the next bullet point...

What are you going to do when you want to upgrade beyond 4GB of RAM and you've already bought a 32-bit Windows OS? What happens then? At that point, sometime in the future, are you going to buy a 64-bit Windows OS? I'm not saying this is a good idea or a bad idea - I'm just asking here.

I'm asking mainly because Windows operating systems in general tend to be quite expensive and I see them as an investment. And in the case of Vista, the 32-bit versions and 64-bit versions are the same darn price! When I look back at my own usage, I got into WinXP back in 2001 before SP1! :eek: That goes back to my first custom build: Athlon (not even AthlonXP!) 1.2 GHz, 256MB DDR266 RAM, 60GB IBM "Deathstar" HDD, and a lowly GeForce2 Ti (which today only compares well against the Nintendo DS and PSP! :eek:). That was WinXP - ground zero for me. Looking at my current system, I'm still using WinXP (with SP2) but now I've got a dual-core Athlon64 FX-60 2.6 GHz, 2GB dual-channel DDR400, 320GB SATA HDD, and the eminent GeForce 8800 GTS 640MB (factory OC'ed). In terms of the RAM, over the time that I've been using WinXP for the past 6 years, my RAM capacity is 8 times what it used to be - and that's being conservative right now since I'm within a year of my next major core upgrade. Not to mention I'm not yet done using WinXP! So the investment of an OS (for which I have to pay anyway) is a MAJOR concern for me! WinXP has lasted me the longest of any Windows OS, and I'm wondering if Vista will be the same for me. That's why I'm glad I got 64-bit Vista, because if the same trend holds true, I'll still be running Vista strong when I've got 8 x 2GB of RAM = 16GB of RAM. Can't do that on Vista 32-bit...

[George Hallam]

A very famous quote from Bill Gates is:. 640KB of RAM should be enough for everyone :p :D

haha and that wasn't long ago

oooo how he was wrong :p

[mxer394]

I understand how you could misinterpret that.

What I meant was that when you said that you could go up to 128 gigs of RAM, that I would never go up that high in RAM.

I'm actually trying to shave some money off the overall price so I can get 4 gigs of RAM. Problem is, it's difficult to shave money when I'm at the bare minimum. No speakers, no monitor, nothing, and I still can't get 4 gigs of RAM. And I'm sort of agonizing: if I drop enough, should I get four gigs of ram or SLI two 8800 GTs.

I think I'm getting close to my final configuration. I just configured a PC with 4 gigs of DDR2/800 ram, and an 8800GT, 3 GHz Core 2 duo for 1245.

Not bad...

[saphalline]

My main concern for your OS choice comes down to upgrades.

4GB of RAM is still a lot right now, but only in terms of the sheer amount of RAM, not in terms of pricing or hardware support. The cost of 4GB of RAM vs 2GB is directly in line with capacity, meaning that 1GB sticks are ubiquitous right now. 2GB sticks are still a bit more expensive than 2 x 1GB sticks, but even this is becoming more "normal" for those who have the cash.

What I'm worried about is letting you settle for a 32-bit version of Vista when your starting RAM capacity is at 2GB, so near to the 3/4GB limit of the software. Thus if you buy 32-bit Vista Home Premium (or whatever) right now, what happens 1-2 years from now when you upgrade your RAM? Are you going to buy yet another copy of Vista? Are you just going to keep buying a new copy of the latest Windows OS every time you build or upgrade? M$ charges way too much for Windows to simply buy every one of them! That's why I'm concerned if you buy into the 32-bit Vista end of things right now.

[mxer394]

Problem solved.

I did a bit of configuring earlier today, and realized that if I took a pricier unit (on Cyberpower), take the Gamer Infinity XLC (1659), and configured it down instead of starting with a cheaper unit and configuring up, I can save a considerable amount, allowing me to buy the 4 gigs of DDR2/800 RAM, and Vista 64 bit.

Took a while, but it works.

[saphalline]

and configured it down instead of starting with a cheaper unit and configuring up, I can save a considerable amountWeird... (We need a "weird" smiley.)

Ah well, whatever works! Right? :D

[mxer394]

This what I'm thinking I'm going to order. I'm about 9 days from ordering in order to get it by Christmas, so this is what I'm thinking that I'm going to order...

Sckt775)Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6850 CPU @ 3.00GHz 1333FSB 4MB L2 Cache 64-bit()

Intel Certified Fan and Heatsink

(Quad-Core FSB1333) EVGA nForce 680i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard

4GB (4x1GB) PC6400 DDR2/800 Dual Channel Memory

Nvidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB (EVGA)

600 Watt Coolermaster PSU

320 Gigabyte Hard Drive

Windows Vista Basic (64 bit)

That's the build. I need to know how well it will run games. I'm using a 3 year old monitor, 13 inch, so it's by no means high resolution. It also needs to be able to game online well.

How well would that work?

Also, the EVGA 8800GT: how well does it work? Is it worth the 5 dollars, or is the regular 8800 better?

Thanks guys...

[George Hallam]

Ok all looks good couple of thoughts

-Get Vista home premium 64 Bit its a lot better than basic

Yes it will be fine for online play so long as you have a good broadband connection ;)

Also, the EVGA 8800GT: how well does it work? Is it worth the 5 dollars, or is the regular 8800 better?

-Yes its good, is it factory OC'ed? link?

I'm using a 3 year old monitor, 13 inch

I think your next upgrade should be a nice 22" widescreen :p (or any bigger monitor infact ;))

[mxer394]

Well, as small as my monitor is right now, it'd be a step up just to get a 17 inch :)

But as far as the EVGA 8800, it doesn't really specify what it is. It's just an option. I mean, if it's overclocked, well, I mean it's only 5 extra dollars.

I'll do a bit of digging...

[George Hallam]

It will make gaming a lot more enjoyable with a bigger screen and higher resolutions..

What resolution is your screen at the moment??

[mxer394]

I played games on my old PC with this monitor, so I have no problem with it. Don't get me wrong, a bigger monitor would be nice, but hey, if it works...

And I have a question about my CPU. These are the same price, so which would be better:
(Sckt775)Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6850 CPU @ 3.00GHz 1333FSB 4MB L2 Cache 64-bit
OR
(Quad-Core)Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz 1066FSB 8MB L2 Cache 64-bit

Besides the quad core, the biggest difference is the GHz per core and the Core 2 Duo has 1333FSB, and the quad core has 1066FSB.

What's FSB and how does it affect processor performance?

[TheTree718]

And I have a question about my CPU. These are the same price, so which would be better:
(Sckt775)Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6850 CPU @ 3.00GHz 1333FSB 4MB L2 Cache 64-bit
OR
(Quad-Core)Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz 1066FSB 8MB L2 Cache 64-bit



games this year dont stress quad cores, quake is an example of one that does. if you want a pc that will last get the quad, if you want the speed now get the duo.

[mxer394]

Well, thing is, I like to know why I'm not getting something rather than the other, and what each specification in the name means.

Like FSB? What does the difference between the two? Also, two other things. The 4 MB and 8 MB L2 Cache? What does the large cache do for the processor? And finally (enough of the questions, I know...), is it better to have 2 3.00 GHz cores, or 4 2.4 GHz cores?

Thanks guys...

[George Hallam]

Ok
FSB is the transfer rate from the CPU to the northbrige and then to the RAM
266Mhz (1066QDR) -> The speed of your quad core's FSB -> must have DDR2 533Mhz RAM
333Mhz (1333QDR) -> The speed of your Dual core's FSB -> must have DDR2 667Mhz RAM

1066Mhz has 1066 MT/s to the NB
1333Mhz has 1333 MT/s to the NB

It does matter alot really about your FSB at these speeds

Im not 100% sure on all of this Saph could probably explain more..

But i do no the difference in performance will be small and the fact that the Quad has 4 cores makes up for the lack of FSB

The differnce between the two.... hmmmm well one has 4 core and the other has 2 :p on the whole the Quad core has more umpf..

The larger the cache the better, and large caches store small amounts of data close to the CPU (well inside nm apart)

Well newer games and ones as of next year will love the Quad core but for games now the faster dual core is better but for the future i advise the Quad

[mxer394]

So...

either way, they're both good processors, but for the long run, the quad core would be better?

But, would the quad core still run games well? And also, say in the future I want to upgrade my processor, how difficult is it to replace.

[George Hallam]

Yes a Quad core is better and will run games great...

Well it depends on what MOBO you have a 680i MOBO does not support Penryn Quad cores (45nm the Q9000 series)..

[mxer394]

So, would the mobo I have on the configuration work?

[George Hallam]

Not with Quad core Penryn only Dual core Wolfdale

[mxer394]

In the description it says that it supports Intel Core 2 Quad...

So why exactly will it not work?

Not saying I don't believe you, but like I said, I always like to know the reasons behind not getting something...

[saphalline]

In the description it says that it supports Intel Core 2 Quad...It supports the C2Q's that are available now, like the Q6600. It won't support the new Penryn-based C2Q's.

That's kind of a sticking point if you want to be able to upgrade this new computer of yours down the road. Most people don't end up replacing their mobo unless it nets them incredible new experiences! :D Myself included. I expect, at the absolute minimum, that I can get one CPU upgrade out of a mobo (as well as other upgrades like RAM and more drives) before I have to replace it and do a total core upgrade. If you don't leave yourself room for quad-core CPU's that are being released in just 2 short months, you might just end up being sorry for yourself. ;)

The issue of FSB speed is mainly one of efficiency. The faster the communication lines to the CPU, the better! This ensures that data gets into the CPU as fast as possible and results are retrieved as fast as possible. The move from a 1066 FSB to a 1333 FSB, for instance, reduces CPU multipliers by 20% and provides an additional 2.1 GB/s of raw data bandwidth to/from the CPU. The numbers alone imply tangible performance benefits at higher clock speeds where the disparities are the greatest. And with Core being so powerful per clock already, and the added complexity of multi-core designs, efficiency concerns become important at relatively low clock speeds such as 2.6 GHz. To wit, this is also why Core-based CPU's have such voluminous cache sizes! :eek: Gotta feed the stubby pipeline somehow!

[mxer394]

So what type of motherboard should I look for in order to support the newer CPUS?

[George Hallam]

X38 (replaced by X48 in January) the P35 and they are the only current ones that support Penryn C2Q but non of them support SLI only Crossfire...

In January Nvidia release their new 700 chipsets

[mxer394]

Man...

I'm going to upgrade to SLI in the future, so Crossfire Mobos are out. But how difficult is it to change a motherboard? Because I'll probably only change my processor in about 1 1/2 years, so it'll be a while...

[saphalline]

But how difficult is it to change a motherboard?It's quite the task! It's not difficult by any means, but it's extremely annoying and time-consuming!

You have to unplug everything and remove all expansion cards and re-do the CPU installation and reinstall Windows and re-do the drivers and reinstall all your programs...

It's not something you want to do all that often. I usually refer to a mobo upgrade as a "core upgrade" simply because it's so much work. And if you're gonna do all that work, you may as well upgrade the CPU and RAM and vid card and who knows what else!?

Pick the mobo once. If SLI is what you want, and if future Intel quad-core is also what you want, then you'll have to wait for NVidia's chipsets to catch up...

[mxer394]

Well, there's where I'm coming from (although I didn't know it).

When I upgrade the motherboard, then I will more than likely be upgrading the CPU, the video card, the ram, etc.

Which kind of makes sense, since when I do upgrade, it'll be in a couple of years (besides another 8800GT), and I'm studying computer engineering and alot of other courses, which means that by the time it comes up for a core upgrade, I'll be a little more prepared.

Plus I have the PC Guide... ;)

[mxer394]

Alright.

I'm going to be ordering this in a couple of days, by the end of the week at least.

This is the configuration I'm looking for. It feels like I've posted this hundreds of times :). But I'm almost there...

Recap: play games well, good processing power, and it has to cool sufficiently, and the power supply has to be enough for future upgrades.

Okay, here we go.

Xion SuperNova 600 Watt

(Quad-Core)Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4GHz 1066FSB 8MB L2 Cache 64-bit

INTEL LGA775 CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK(INTEL LGA775 CERTIFIED CPU FAN & HEATSINK)

(Quad-Core FSB1333) EVGA nForce 680i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard((Quad-Core FSB1333) EVGA nForce 680i SLI Chipset LGA775 FSB1333 DDR2 Mainboard)

4GB (4x1GB) PC6400 DDR2/800 Dual Channel Memory(Corsair Value Select or Major Brand)

NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GT 512MB 16X PCI Express(EVGA Powered by NVIDIA)

320GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD

20X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW DRIVE DUAL LAYER

3D WAVE ON-BOARD 5.1 SOUND CARD

600WATT PMPO SUBWOOFER STEREO SPEAKERS

Professional Wiring

Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Home Premium(64-bit Edition)



And thats it...

Also, this is being ordered from Cyberpower PC (cyberpowerpc.com). Does anyone have any experiences with Cyberpower? Are they a good supplier. This is kind of cursory, because I really don't have a choice, because they have the only configuration of this quality for only 1250, with a 3 year warranty.

Also, I need to be sure there are no (or minimal) bottlenecks in the system

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the things you have done for me so far...

[George Hallam]

Plus I have the PC Guide... ;)

That what were here for :D

[mxer394]

Yeah. To be honest, I would definitely have made a bad choice on my PC if it wasn't for the PC Guide. The first post was a month ago, and man, it feels like a journey from then.

Now I've finally got my configuration set, is there anything wrong guys?

[George Hallam]

Does anyone have any experiences with Cyberpower?

No sorry cant comment on that

Also, I need to be sure there are no (or minimal) bottlenecks in the system

Their will always be bottlenecks :( but their is no major on yours.. If i had to pick one it would be your GPU like on all builds... But nothing can be done about that even with SLI 8800 ULTRA's they will still be the bottlenecks

Now I've finally got my configuration set, is there anything wrong guys?

Nope not as i can see.. What speakers are you getting? why not get logitech?

also what are you doing about mouse/mat and keyboard??

[mxer394]

Keyboard and mouse are standard PS2 affairs, no need to upgrade them.

And my speakers are just the ones that the PC comes with. My friend is giving me his old 5.1 surround sound system for free, so these are just a stand in...

[George Hallam]

Keyboard and mouse are standard PS2 affairs, no need to upgrade them.

Hahaha not a good idea

Ok keyboard erm.. Ok will do

BUT A PS2 mouse :S please dont tell me its a ball :p

[mxer394]

No, it's an optical mouse...

But to be honest, I don't need an ergonomically designed keyboard or mouse. I lasted 7 years on the ones I have on the computer I'm using right now, so for the keyboard and mouse, it's all good...

Oh, and it's not in the budget either :).

But back to some more serious topics. The bottleneck on the GPU. What kind are you referring to and why is it on all builds?

[George Hallam]

A good mouse will vastly improve gaming user performance

But back to some more serious topics. The bottleneck on the GPU. What kind are you referring to and why is it on all builds?

Well with gaming anyway, because for gaming (newer games) they are very graphic intensive and yes they do need alot of CPU and RAM power but most of it is on the GPU.. i cant really explain why it just is :p

The GPU has alot of power and games gobble all of that up and do not need as much CPU power (how many calculation do you really need a second ;))

But the card you chose is fine................ for now :D

[mxer394]

Yeah, I might be able to squeeze a better mouse or keyboard in there.

But for the GPU, that will suffice until I can get together enough money for a second 8800GT, and SLI those suckers.

That should tide me over for a while...

[mxer394]

Well, I might be ordering today, so I need a few more opinions and input. Anything wrong with it, anything that should be changed, or anyone with experience with Cyberpower, let's hear it guys.

Thanks...

[George Hallam]

all look good now mate ;)

Soz no i haven't had any experience with them

[mxer394]

Second opinions?

This thing also needs to hold out for a year or two before I have to make any modifications besides a graphics card or something...

[Ajmukon]

they sound good.
and $500 off.... pretty good...

[mxer394]

Alright then, just to be clear.

The PSU can handle me adding another 8800GT? Also, what would I have to do to install a new 8800GT, as I'm buying this PC, and in January, I'm going to be buying another graphics card. One more thing though, the card has to be identical, right? As in, by EVGA, 512MB, identical.

Thanks guys.

[Ajmukon]

Saph's department, not mine

but i do not think they have to be identical...
just the same processor (ie 8800GT will not work with a 8800GTX)

[mxer394]

Makes sense. I was just looking around at some reviews for the 8800GT, and I figure I shouldn't have to upgrade for a little while, so I'll probably buy it a couple of months before they take it out of production.

Which begs the question: How long do the production cycles last on these cards?

[saphalline]

Who knows??

It's the new era of DX10 and Vista! New territory! No telling what will happen specifically. Especially since DX10 compliance is now so simple and streamlined. I imagine we're going to see quite a lot of incremental improvements in the vid card market until we hit the next major bump in the road: DX11. ;)

[mxer394]

Thanks.

I'm ordering in a couple of hours, so...

[rond36]

I think the first thing I would add to that PC is a sound card.

[mxer394]

Just ordered. Thanks for all the help you guys have given me.

Greatly appreciated.

[George Hallam]

ooo goody :D

give us a post when you get it

[saphalline]

I love helping other people spend their money! :D :cool:

[LucienR]

How did you manage to get that $500 off?

[Ajmukon]

special X-mass deal

[George Hallam]

dont you just love X-mas
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[LucienR]

ah nice!

Wish I had that kinda money right now... I'm stuck with a laptop that was already low-end at the beginning of 06 :(

Guess I should start saving up :rolleyes:

[mxer394]

Yeah. That was a big thing about this PC, is I wanna be able to update it regularly so it isn't obsolete within 45 seconds of me receiving it.

[LucienR]

Meh, I'll probably wait until I'm either in my senior year of high school, or in college before I buy a good gaming computer...

[wickedestman]

@mxer394
bro wats up? i see you jus purchased a pc from cyberpower. I want to know how they are. What do you think about there service because im intending on buying a new pc also. but im a bit lazy. Do you think there prices are good?

[mxer394]

As far as their quality goes, I will have to get back to you on that, as I have not received my PC yet. However, they processed the order quickly, and were helpful in verifying compatibility with all components. They also answer e-mails quickly and accurately. Overall, for the PC I got, I think I got an excellent price and from what is a very solid corporation. Once I get the PC, I'll be starting a new thread based on my experiences.

-Cheers

[wickedestman]

thanks a lot for your response. ill be waiting for that thread!

BTW do you know if they ship worldwide?

[mxer394]

I'm not really sure if they ship out of the continental United States. It can't hurt to ask., though.

[mxer394]

Okay guys. The computer arrives Friday. I'm taking the day off to be there when it gets here and set it up. I have a few questions. What should I do, first time I take it out of the box. I'm planning on taking a look inside to make sure everything is connected, thermal paste where it needs to be, etc. Anything else in particular I should do?

Thanks for all the help guys.

[Ajmukon]

checking for thermal paste?... it is UNDER the heat sinks so you can't see it and removing the heat sinks voids the warranty...

as for the cables in...
don't really need to check...

if any cable is missing... the POST loader will tell you..

all you really need to do is boot up the machine to see if it works.

[mxer394]

Just curious. Because I've heard stories (my friend had this happen to his PC), where people do just that, and just plug it straight in, and because the PSU was connected incorrectly, or a cable wasn't plugged in (I don't know the details. Mental tenacity of a bottle cap, remember?), the computer short circuits, or overheats, or something goes catastrophically bat sh*t crazy. Also, what's this I'm hearing about 8800 GTs overheating. Someone said I should download the drivers from nVidia.com and change the fan speed.

Thanks again for all the help and patience. I truly appreciate it.

[saphalline]

Also, what's this I'm hearing about 8800 GTs overheating. Someone said I should download the drivers from nVidia.com and change the fan speed.Vid cards don't overheat! It's just that most people know jack sh*t about cooling! :rolleyes:

I have a factory OC'ed 8800 GTS 640MB vid card, which is based on the older 90nm G90 and runs even hotter than a 65nm G92-based 8800 GT, and it's perfectly fine in my system. If I can cool this monster, there's no excuse for building a gaming system using a colder vid card that constantly overheats. :rolleyes: Good cooling is essential for ANY system! Gaming systems even more so! Just make sure it's properly cooled and these rumours will stay far away from you...

The Riva Tuner app can adjust the fan speed, yes. I wouldn't suggest cranking it all the way up, but a little higher is fine. It would certainly help with cooling, but remember to consider this as another tool in your arsenal, not the final solution that most people use it for.

[mxer394]

Thanks Saph. I just got the computer yesterday, and I'm typing on it right now! I asked because I heard a rumor (nothing more, nothing less) that the 8800GT was factory set to 30% fan speed, and a few people on another forum were posting about how their GT's were overheating and whatnot. I was curious.

And since I got the PC, I'm probably going to start a new thread about it's performance and whatnot. A before and after, sort of thing. So in order to make this thread stop jumping to the top, and since I can't lock or delete the thread (as far as I know), please no more posts. Any questions about the outcome or anything can be asked in the new thread.