Confirmed Vista works the best on a Mac, now will you PC boys admit it ?

[Macmutt]

Well i was watching the feed on Attack of the Show on G4 tonight and they reported that the best system to run windows Vista on without any bugs is a Macbook Pro --ha-ha-ha-ha...oh, sorry...sorry but you have to admit, that is pretty friggin' hilarious.
Not only did we Mac fan's just finish enjoying the success and new and superior capabilities of our beloved new leopard, but the bug filled Vista was actually tested and proven to run the best on a Macbook Pro, why any one would want it, with Leopard on the market, i don't know but it's still hilarious.
Well it just goes to show, now not only do our Mac's have the superior operating system but it has also been confirmed that we have the superior hardware.
So do your self a favor PC boys just switch, you'll be happier trust me.

[mjc]

You know, for some one who is touting the superiority of the same bloody hardware, you are being rather trollish...Macs are now Intel machines with the same basic hardware as any other PC, so just drop it, will you, before you totally embarrass yourself?

[Macmutt]

You know, for some one who is touting the superiority of the same bloody hardware, you are being rather trollish...Macs are now Intel machines with the same basic hardware as any other PC, so just drop it, will you, before you totally embarrass yourself?

How would i embarrass myself, i'm just stating true facts, because this is, unfortunately a PC world the windows O.S. is the most hacked virus ridden system in the world and bulky, flimsy towers used to encase it's hardware are not as sturdy as they should be.
All this is not breaking news but, because of all these facts, in the present day Windows latest operating system runs smoothest on the most sturdy hardware built with the most user friendly, advanced O.S. in the world, the Mac, which happens to be their primary nemesis and i think the irony is hilarious.

[Ajmukon]

We have nothing against the MAC.

But we are generally gamers and games generally run in windows with the greatness of DX10! :eek:

Also, neither OS is easier to use or operate, and neither is "superior" especially in the hardware department- most computers nowadays use the same CPU, video cards, mobos, etc.-


Now- what flavor of Vista- 32Bit or 64bit?

Try running Vista Ultimate 64-Bit on a Quad-Core Penryn with 8 GB Ram with dual Geforce 8800 GTX 756 MB and 1 TB raid 0 HDD and we will talk about speed.


also- could you post the link to this article?

[saphalline]

I just have two things to say:

- A tube of thermal grease per component!

- MacBook + Crysis = broken!

I don't mind starting a new thread on Leopard and touting some of its features, but declaring any one OS or piece of hardware to be superior at everything is moronic, and is called being a fanboy/fangirl! And Apple fanatics wonder why PC users don't take them seriously... :rolleyes:

[Macmutt]

I just have two things to say:

- A tube of thermal grease per component!

- MacBook + Crysis = broken!

I don't mind starting a new thread on Leopard and touting some of its features, but declaring any one OS or piece of hardware to be superior at everything is moronic, and is called being a fanboy/fangirl! And Apple fanatics wonder why PC users don't take them seriously... :rolleyes:

LOL...are you kidding, i could care less if you take me or other Mac users seriously or not, infact we like being the jester, hippie, rebels of the computer world, because mac owners don't think of their Macs as mere computers we think of them as members of our families, and that is something a PC fanboy will never understand.
We actually care about our computers and one another, most recent example, at 4:20pm this past friday i was 3rd in line at my local mall's Apple store waiting to go in at 6pm and buy Leopard before i knew it the line grew to over 100 people and i made a bunch of new friends, and we must have had 30 "PC users" approach and ask us what the line was for, because the line ropes were placed to the far left of the store and every person that asked us and heard the reply of awaiting Leopard's release just shook their heads with disbelief, because they just didn't get it...but
We Mac fanatics loved that they didn't get it, because it could never be explained, it's like trying to explain or define love, you can't, you either get it or you don't, not to mention the Apple store people came out with cases of cool bottles of Poland Spring water for the entire line, aside from the free t-shirts every one got.
When's the last time Microsoft (who could really afford it) showed such consideration for their customers, i think never.
So believe me when i say i could care less if you ever take me seriously, because the fact is, i'll always have the computer that boots up in 10 seconds and runs an equivalent to everything windows can except be virus free, with no spyware, pop ups or any other security problems you guy's have, and as for the games, i'm a console gamer any way, so who cares.

[mjc]

If you can't understand how you will embarrass yourself, at least read up a bit on what hardware all your beloved Macs are using, these days...and just because it comes in a 'pretty' package and much higher price tag does not mean it is 'better'...

It seems to me that your sole purpose in posting your thread, which by the way I saw and thought about posting many hours ago, is to incite a flame war, where you can crawl home and say, 'see the nasty PC boys picked on me'...and, btw the 'superiority' of the Mac was only1 point on one benchmark suite...an 88 beating out a Gateway notebook that had scored an 87...and it only pertains to laptops/notebooks/portables. So, if you want to start a flame war, at least do so with a little bit of the facts to back yourself up with, when you get backed into a corner...

[saphalline]

i could care less if you take me or other Mac users seriously or notYou don't want to mess with me, dude! I'm a Mac user, too! ;)

iBook G4, 933 MHz, 640MB PC133 SDRAM, currently running Mac OS X 10.4.10. Also have an external firewire HDD with Mac OS X 10.3.4 used solely for backup images.

Mac Mini, Core Duo 1.66 GHz, 1GB DDR2-667, currently running Leopard.

Mac Mini, Core Duo 1.66 GHz, 1GB DDR2-667, currently running 10.4.10.

Custom-built main gaming PC, Athlon64 FX-60, 4GB DDR400 RAM, 8800 GTS 640MB factory-OC'ed vid card, dual-booting WinXP Pro and Vista Ultimate 64-bit.

Old Gateway Solo rebuilt for Ubuntu 7.0.4, 366 MHz Pentium II mobile, 256MB PC100 SDRAM, still need to upgrade to Gutsy Gibbon.

Compaq Evo N800v rebuilt for work-related tasks, P4M 1.7 GHz, 512MB DDR266 RAM, currently running WinXP Pro and Ubuntu Gutsy Gibbon (depending on which HDD is installed).

Plus a few other tertiary systems.

You wanna talk dirt? Go ahead. I'm using everything! But stick to facts. I don't "love" my Macs any more than any other computer. They all break eventually...

[Macmutt]

If you can't understand how you will embarrass yourself, at least read up a bit on what hardware all your beloved Macs are using, these days...and just because it comes in a 'pretty' package and much higher price tag does not mean it is 'better'...

It seems to me that your sole purpose in posting your thread, which by the way I saw and thought about posting many hours ago, is to incite a flame war, where you can crawl home and say, 'see the nasty PC boys picked on me'...and, btw the 'superiority' of the Mac was only1 point on one benchmark suite...an 88 beating out a Gateway notebook that had scored an 87...and it only pertains to laptops/notebooks/portables. So, if you want to start a flame war, at least do so with a little bit of the facts to back yourself up with, when you get backed into a corner...

First of all i'm well aware of the intel core duo processor macs as well as the rest of the hardware, but hyundai and mercedes both use suspension and tires, but if you could, you'd buy the mercedes, why? because it's built better, it's made to last and run better and longer.
By the way i didn't intentionally start a flame war, that's just how PC guy's tend to react when any kind of Apple facts are brought to their attention, now this is a computer forum, so i am therefore entitled to speak in favor of my computer of choice and i can speak from experience because, not only was i former PC user years ago but i went to school for PC upgrades and repair, and i'm telling you honestly PC's are the only computers i and my friends and family ever had problems with.
It's not just mere coincidence that the 4 people i've recommended a Mac to, have now all switched to a mac and couldn't be happier, now all their computer viruses and error messages, spyware, antivirus updates, pop ups and freeze ups and reboots in safe mode are all a thing of the past.
They especially like the Mac voice command of every application, website, and other task merely by vocally telling the computer to do so.
Not to mention all of the above perks merely scratches the surface of the Mac's full potential.
So there is no need for a flame war i'm just expressing my feelings in a retort to your comments, thats all.

[PrntRhd]

Macmutt,

Drink Steve Job's KoolAid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F9gdx_LIAc

Already problems with Leopard's firewall?
http://www.heise-security.co.uk/news/98156

[kuabarra]

First of all i'm well aware of the intel core duo processor macs as well as the rest of the hardware, but hyundai and mercedes both use suspension and tires, but if you could, you'd buy the mercedes, why? because it's built better, it's made to last and run better and longer.

Wow just wow. There are different brands of tires and suspension. Thats like saying macs and pc use processors and ram without indicating what cpu or ram.
If a PC and a MAC both have a core 2 duo e4400 for example, they will both have the same processing capabilities, as long as the other components were the same. There's not "high quality" and "low quality" core 2 duos.
Also, there is only one mac company. Many different companies make pcs. Sure a mac might be better than some pcs, but not all. Especially those home built gaming rigs! Lets see a mac beet a Core 2 Quad Extreme with sli 8800 ultras. I doubt the mac would even be in the ballpark. Any Mac with the same specs as a PC will preform EQUALLY. They probably did a comparison with a top of the line mac and a mid rang off the shelf pc/notebook whatever it was.

[PrntRhd]

Mac is Apple for "paid too much".
;)

[MadMax08]

...now this is a computer forum...

I picked this site because it was the PC Guide. Doesn't "PC" mean not a Mac, or did I miss something important?? /sarcasm.

[deddard]

macs are pretty-pretty expensive

[PrntRhd]

Mac users are not immune to social engineering:
http://www.theregister.com/2007/10/31/in_the_wild_osx_trojan/
Miscreants have released a sophisticated Trojan into the wild that targets Mac users

[FrankSG]

I'm just wondering. Does Mac alway come with an attitude?:confused: If you like a Mac, that's fine. But don't you think it's a little bit childish to try to belittle others simply because they prefer something else? I suppose that most of us used to do that when we were kids. But, come on--let's grow up. Why not just enjoy what you have and be thankful for it with out throwing stones at others?

[MadMax08]

I'm just wondering. Does Mac alway come with an attitude?:confused: If you like a Mac, that's fine. But don't you think it's a little bit childish to try to belittle others simply because they prefer something else? I suppose that most of us used to do that when we were kids. But, come on--let's grow up. Why not just enjoy what you have and be thankful for it with out throwing stones at others?

amen to that. i have yet to meet a Mac owner without the "Mac attitude". I really hope there are some out there.

[saphalline]

and as for the games, i'm a console gamer any way, so who cares.I care. I'm a computer gamer. And a console gamer when I have time (very rarely these days). You cannot simply disregard a point being made because you personally don't share that usage model. It matters to someone out there, and in this case a great many people. Take World of Warcraft, for instance. That's a game that can be played on both Windows systems and your beloved Mac's, but not consoles! I'd say that's a pretty good reason for considering gamers in your arguments.

that's just how PC guy's tend to react when any kind of Apple facts are brought to their attentionBut you didn't bring any facts to our attention. That's the thing. You mentioned a show on G4, didn't even provide a link of any kind, and then proceeded to tell us that Mac's are "the best". But nothing is the best because everything is different. Let's say you have a job that requires you to use a specific program, and that program is only available for Windows. Is a Mac "the best" for that?? And don't even try and say that you should dump Windows and get a Mac in that case because I stated a what-if based on your job requiring it! Like I said, nothing can be the best because computers are supposed to be tools to get a job done, not a replacement for a family member. :rolleyes:

I have only ever stated facts in this thread and I will continue to do so. Care to join me?

and i can speak from experience because, not only was i former PC user years ago but i went to school for PC upgrades and repair, and i'm telling you honestly PC's are the only computers i and my friends and family ever had problems with.I am also speaking from experience - check my credentials above and note that I was the one who started the Leopard thread. And from my experience, every computer breaks and has issues. My iBook does, my Mac Mini's do, my main Windows gaming rig does (though rarely now), as does Linux if you do something wrong to it. If you've never had a problem with your Apple computers, consider yourself lucky! Because having to flush out all those config files and preferences when you have to reinstall Adobe Reader 7.x is a real PITA! And have you ever tried updating Apache on Mac OS X!? :eek: Try doing that without the Terminal!

As for the infections and virii of which you speak, that really only applies to Windows and only if you don't take care of it (ie, reinstall every 9 months like I do! :p). Notice that a lot of so-called PC users here run some sort of Linux distro as their primary OS, which is a sight better than Mac OS X when it comes to *NIX security! Don't even talk to me about kernel updates! Mac OS X is 18 months behind (on average) when it comes to FreeBSD security updates! In many cases, the next point revision is the only thing that updates the *NIX base... :rolleyes:

I picked this site because it was the PC Guide. Doesn't "PC" mean not a Mac, or did I miss something important??PC = personal computer. Not necessarily Wintel and not necessarily IBM-clone descendants. A Mac is a PC. There are situations in which it is convenient to refer to open standard x86 systems as PC's, but technically this is incorrect and vague. And now that Apple is also on x86 and has dropped support for PowerPC, the distinction is growing fuzzier. Apple only has proprietary design on its side now, though I have to give them credit for being the first with Core CPU's and EFI.

I'm just wondering. Does Mac alway come with an attitude?Not always, but usually. Typically, the "attitude" is limited to pure GUI users who own Mac's. You will usually only find grounded individuals in the CLI camp - the ones who use Apple hardware via FreeBSD. After all, there are things that Finder won't do! ;)

i have yet to meet a Mac owner without the "Mac attitude".Allow me to introduce myself - my name is saphalline. What's yours?

[mjc]

Now here is a link to the story that started this...

http://www.pcworld.com/product/review/id,30190/apple_macbook_pro.html

[FrankSG]

, because mac owners don't think of their Macs as mere computers we think of them as members of our families, and that is something a PC fanboy will never understand.

Well--I have to agree with you on something. When you say that a PC fanboy will neverstand that you think of your mac as a member of your family, I have to agree with you. I don't understand that. Most of us like to think of our wife or husband and children as our family.

[George Hallam]

maybe this is more relevant
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

contains language

[Macmutt]

I'm just wondering. Does Mac alway come with an attitude?:confused: If you like a Mac, that's fine. But don't you think it's a little bit childish to try to belittle others simply because they prefer something else? I suppose that most of us used to do that when we were kids. But, come on--let's grow up. Why not just enjoy what you have and be thankful for it with out throwing stones at others?

If Mac people come here with an attitude, which i don't think i did but if mac people do, then it could stem from the "FACT" that Bill Gates stole the G.U.I.
operating system from Apple not too long after Apple bought it from Xerox in the early 80's.
Need proof watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" the true story of Bill Gates & Microsoft and Steve Jobs & Apple.
You'll soon see that Bill Gates never created anything, he bought D.O.S. from some guy who developed it and sold it to Gates for $50,000 and then after convincing Steve Jobs he'd develop software for Apple's new G.U.I.- OS computer Apple shipped them a few prototypes and Bill Gates pirated the software turned it upside down and called it Windows...and beat Steve Jobs to the world wide market and stole one of the biggest fortunes in history...and ever since then Apple has been the minority, but they've always had the better product and always will, and if you guy's are going to sit here and whine about how expensive Mac's are, well thats your problem, as for me i firmly believe in "you get what you pay for".
I'm also sure it's mere coincindence that each new Windows operating system appears more and more graphically similar to Mac OS-X right, c'mon give me a break, Microsoft is still doing there copycat routine only this time they can't get their hands on software and hardware prototypes...so they get their sneak peaks any way they can and try to develop from there accept now it didn't work Vista is fast becoming known as the biggest pile of garbage on the market...how sad, and Leopard is making record sales and getting phenomenal reviews.
So, me i don't have an attitude, actually with Apple constantly one upping Microsoft in everything from software to hardware, all is right with the world.

[George Hallam]

listen mate you really have been going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
if you think MAC's are better fine..... you dont need to go shouting of the roof tops about it. Im surprised the mods haven't banned you for being a troll. i have only ever used a MAC a few times and its nothing WOW.. i use windows because im used to it and it plays the games i want it to..

So if you can give me 10 good reasons with backup from reliable sources i may think about listening to your argument

[Macmutt]

[QUOTE=George Hallam;369716]listen mate you really have been going on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
if you think MAC's are better fine..... you dont need to go shouting of the roof tops about it. Im surprised the mods haven't banned you for being a troll. i have only ever used a MAC a few times and its nothing WOW.. i use windows because im used to it and it plays the games i want it to..

So if you can give me 10 good reasons with backup from reliable sources i may think about listening to your argument[/QUOTE

Fair enough, i just don't want to be trampled in here every time i mention a mac in a discussion or thread...that's all.

[saphalline]

Need proof watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" the true story of Bill Gates & Microsoft and Steve Jobs & Apple.You're basing your "facts" off a Hollywood movie!? :p That's about as reliable as posting your social security number right here on the forums!

It's no secret that Billy Gates bought DOS, but in the buying M$ became the rightful owner. But it's not true that he stole the Mac OS - Windows 1.0 through 3.x wasn't an OS. It was just a GUI overlay for DOS. It wasn't until Win95 that an actual attempt at an OS was developed by M$, and even then it wasn't far off from DOS. Only WinNT was new IP from M$. And yes, Steve Jobs bought a lot of IP himself from Xerox's PARC, but again he bought it and became the rightful owner. Like say, the mouse? That's what led to the GUI. So if you want to go that far, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs just happened to be a couple of young kids who happened to be friends and who happened to stumble upon the right technology at the right time. They were entrepreneurs who took advantage of many already-created puzzle pieces and carved empires out of something new: the PC.

And don't even talk about modern advances in GUI's! M$ didn't steal its GUI any more than Apple didn't steal theirs from the open-source world. X is still based on OpenGL and Mac OS X 10.5 and Vista are using their own 3D GUI code. I don't see DirectX on Mac OS X just like I don't see Darwin on Vista. It's all Apples and oranges now. Incompatible and drawing from all the previous years of computer advancement. Why reinvent the wheel?

Besides, no one here is a Bill Gates fan, so you're barking up the wrong tree here. You seem to think that there are two camps in the computer world - Mac and Windows. You completely missed my point about Linux users here on the forums and instead are attacking Vista, which has such a low install base among the members here and is already disliked for most things! :p Preaching to the choir at that point, eh? I use Vista Ultimate 64-bit for gaming, and only for gaming! Can't really do much else with it...

i firmly believe in "you get what you pay for".I'm totally with you there! I agree wholeheartedly! But here's my problem with using Mac's exclusively - I go to Apple's online store and pick out a Mac Pro. Good machine, a bit expensive, but you get what you pay for, right? Then I try to customize it and uh-oh! Big problem! I've got a GeForce 8800 GTS 640MB factory-OC vid card in my main gaming rig, but guess what? Mac Pro's don't have that option! :eek: So right off the bat, I'm already running hardware that is newer and DX10 compliant and that Apple does not offer. You do get what you pay for, but when you can't even buy it, isn't it priceless?

i just don't want to be trampled in here every time i mention a mac in a discussion or thread...that's all.Then just post here normally, with questions or opinions and be open about things. Also the whole idea about facts. Definitely facts. We like those here. I use them myself! Give it a try. And don't try to tell us that Windows is bad and Apple products are "the best" - you won't get a good response here because most of us build our own computers (which excludes Apple by default) and we like to run pre-Vista Windows or Linux anyway!

[FrankSG]

[QUOTE=Fair enough, i just don't want to be trampled in here every time i mention a mac in a discussion or thread...that's all.[/QUOTE]

But, Macmutt, you are the one who started the trampling. On your very first post, you trampled on us. Re-read how you came across. Doesn't it seem like you trampled a little bit? Another thing, you mentioned that you have an issue with Bill Gates. Well, I can understand that--a lot of people do--so join the crowd. But then take it out on Bill Gates, not us. You know--we are all doing the best we can by the light that we have. We're all going to have differences. But you came in with your boxing gloves on. What do you expect. If you like Macs but don't like PCs, OK. But let's discuss it like adults. I don't know you at all--don't know a thing about you. You could be a real nice guy. But, don't try to put us down because some of us use a different computer than you do. I think you'll find, that in spite of the different opinions here, we all get along pretty well. Let's try to respect the different views of others--even if we think they are wrong.

[Ajmukon]

Personally- i am a fan of Lunix.
it just that the fact it won't install the only reason why i do not use it.- but hopefully that will be changing in the next month..

and i like MACs for the ease of use- a friend once told me
Windows almost never breaks down, but when it does- you are screwed, MACs, on the other hand- always break down, but are simple to fix

and i have heard horror stories about people who dropped a MACs from 1 or 2 inches (~5cm)(lets just say they did not work anymore..)

[pentachris]

I was trying to find an image to post here. Instead, I'll let you take your pick. (http://images.google.com/images?complete=1&hl=en&q=don't+feed+the+trolls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)

[MadMax08]

I was trying to find an image to post here. Instead, I'll let you take your pick. (http://images.google.com/images?complete=1&hl=en&q=don't+feed+the+trolls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)

lol. good point.

[Ajmukon]

you mean this right?
http://brentroos.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/troll.jpg

well, he isn't a troll- trolls get banned for posting in every forum and topic.. he is only posting in one topic..

[Macmutt]

But, Macmutt, you are the one who started the trampling. On your very first post, you trampled on us. Re-read how you came across. Doesn't it seem like you trampled a little bit? Another thing, you mentioned that you have an issue with Bill Gates. Well, I can understand that--a lot of people do--so join the crowd. But then take it out on Bill Gates, not us. You know--we are all doing the best we can by the light that we have. We're all going to have differences. But you came in with your boxing gloves on. What do you expect. If you like Macs but don't like PCs, OK. But let's discuss it like adults. I don't know you at all--don't know a thing about you. You could be a real nice guy. But, don't try to put us down because some of us use a different computer than you do. I think you'll find, that in spite of the different opinions here, we all get along pretty well. Let's try to respect the different views of others--even if we think they are wrong.

Right you are, my apologies, theres no reason we can't lead by example, to each his own, i won't be bashing anyones choice of hardware anymore.
We all derive the same enjoyment from our systems in one way or another and i didn't mean to come out with gloves on, that's not a very appropriate way to start off in any forum.
So again my apologies - now then, in all sincerity i ask what is the popular opinion on Microsoft's and Apples latest operating systems ?

[Ajmukon]

Vista= sucks (unless a gamer)
see this thread:
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=55584
on this forum, lunix is preferred among members (Ubuntu, Slackware, the list is endless)

since i have never used OS10- i will not comment on it

[kuabarra]

I personally haven't seen much of the mac os but it looks nice! Vista isn't as bad as people say on new hardware, but is still a ram hog and has many performance issues with old games/programs. The only reason I have vista is for dx10, plus the fact my pc came with it:rolleyes:. I dual booted xp for the older games now I have no problems.

[PrntRhd]

I think Apple's version of FreeBSD Unix is likely to be a stable OS.
I think Apple was smart to go Intel simply to catch the wave of more powerful hardware with the advent of Core2Duo. If they had stuck with the Motorolla chips, they would have lost considerable ground.
I don't know your source for Apple "buying" Xerox GUI technology when they were sued by Xerox, & Xerox lost.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_graphical_user_interface

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface

[FrankSG]

Thank you, Macmutt, for your response. Your apology is certainly accepted by me; and I want to believe that the others feel the same way. All the remarks made by any of us prior to this is ancient history as far as I'm concerned. Let's start over. By the way, welcome to the forum.
~Frank~

[Macmutt]

Thank you, Macmutt, for your response. Your apology is certainly accepted by me; and I want to believe that the others feel the same way. All the remarks made by any of us prior to this is ancient history as far as I'm concerned. Let's start over. By the way, welcome to the forum.
~Frank~

Thank you very much, i appreciate it, i look forward to talking computers and future advancements in systems and gadgets with all of you but for now i'm still tinkering with my leopard and waiting to get my external hardrive so i can utilize my Time Machine feature, it will be a huge relief to use that for backups as opposed to cd & dvd-r's and trying to keep track of what files and photos are on which.
I hope to have it soon but i must pick up Call of Duty 4 first then the external hardrive.

[saphalline]

10.5 is a much nicer addition to the Mac OS X core concept. Something that hasn't been done (on this scale) since 10.2 or so. It just seemed to me that 10.4 was only really useful to admins and power users, what with the advancements in Disk Utility and very minor GUI changes. But 10.5 has tangible new features that are like blow-your-socks-off coolness! :cool:

I really like Cover Flow in Finder, personally, and I can't believe they got it to run so well on only 1GB of RAM! :eek: Still, that was on a dual-core x86, so I suppose that had something to do with it. :p Even with the onboard GMA950 graphics, I was able to play the 384MB Leopard demo video in Finder! Freaky! I have yet to test the Time Machine thing, but it looks to be incredibly useful and I doubt it will be too difficult on a 60GB Mac Mini. ;) Should be able to fit the raw install on an old 30GB firewire HDD (although I may test USB just for kicks). Stacks are fun, but they take so much time to set up properly! It just doesn't look cool if the stack gets full and turns into a grid. :( I haven't tried Spaces, either, but I've used multiple desktops before on Linux. Granted the 10.5 version has more flair, but I don't need the flair so that's not a big draw for me. Mail and Safari and most of the others are fluff for me - not important feature additions, but definitely useful for others. To me, things like an email app and browser should be primarily functional and just leave me alone! :p So I'm not all that excited about those. And iChat? Yeah right! Can't afford an iSight-equipped Mac! Besides, do you see anyone else around here with whom I could chat? ;) The (finally!) official Boot Camp, though, is crazy awesome! :D Built right in now, that's so cool!! I'm sad that it supports only 32-bit Windows versions, but it's still nice to have it automatically. I just wish Mac Mini's held more RAM! :(

I'm not trusting the ancient hardware of my iBook to 10.5, though! That's just asking for a slow computing experience! What with PowerPC binaries being so darn inefficient lately - my iBook is feeling slow even on 10.4.10! I'll keep it around as long as it lives, however, because it's the only true "laptop" left in my arsenal. All the others are lap-burners and thus have earned the title of "notebook". It's slow, but still kicking around...

Have you tried iLife 08 yet? I haven't heard much about it - I never really use iLife. But 08 is supposed to be special or something. That's what I've heard anyway. I could look it up, but I'm too lazy to do that. :p

[deddard]

The one thing that bugs most people about MACs is Apple's attitude.
I can remember way back when computers were huge and had less power than your calculator etc etc etc, and the MAC came along.

Great, brilliant!
Well, no. No-one could afford one. They made $1000 dollars profit per machine, and wondered why no-one was prepared to dig in their pocket to get one.
If they had done the IBM thing, and opened it up, then the PC would be a distant memory by now - the MACs were streets ahead in their usability.

Now they've switched to using PCs. They still want them configured in such a way that you're knackered if you want to just throw the MAC OS on any old PC, but they've eventually realised the PC is now a more powerful beast.

Of course, they're still carrying on their thick-headed way with ipods. Because they're popular, they continue to tie you down to a specific format - it doesn't matter what the rest of the world does, you use our proprietary format or lump it.
The same is true with the iPhones - if you try go anywhere other than the people we're making lots of money from, we'll kill your machine.
The EU is already looking at anti-trust legislation regarding the Ipods, and I don't doubt the same will happen with the Iphones.

SO the biggest gripe isn't that we don't like MACs, we just see them as a stupid snobby company who could have made a good bit of kit into an awesome one if they didn't have their noses so far up in the air.
take away the limits with the software production and compatibility, the hardware compatibility, and drop the stupid margins and the MAC OS could well give M$ a good kicking.

My one-line post above sums it up.

I've been in PC World no end of times, and watched people go 'wow, that's gorgeous, I'd like that" then see the price tag, the lack of software and move on.

[Variable]

Well I think it is obvious the user is biased here. So I am not so concerned with education as it is probably not worth the air. But for some real world information...

I would not say that Mac's are built better than any other computer and I know there servers are over priced for what you get, by a great deal. I have seen the same hardware issues with both Windows and Mac's and I see a lot of both types of machines. Minis especially seem to have more issues. By the way, I think all their products are now made in China. Mac's are about being different and having a "look." Most serious IT people don't care about those things, they just want it to "work," here in lies the quandary, because Mac products tend to fly better solo than in groups. The OS is now just Unix, hardware is made in china, if you believe they are rebels and unique it is because you want to believe it, not because it is true.. and by the way, I use Mac's as well but, my every day machines are windows or Linux.

[classicsoftware]

Hey MacMut:

Read this (http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20071030122926454) and this (http://www.news.com/Leopard-early-adopters-suffer-for-the-rest-of-us/8301-13579_3-9809571-37.html?part=dht).

Now we have the Apple Blue Screen of Death (http://www.news.com/8301-13579_3-9806005-37.html).

Apple OS X is a fine OS, but it is not without problems. I am pretty sure if they had 95% of the desktop market, the complaints would be about the same as Windows. You cannot have a program as complicated as an OS, w/o there being problems. An OS is a living breathing changing organism.

[pentachris]

Wow, classic. Did you read his last two posts? I really thought he was coming around to amicability. Why push him further towards antagonism? :confused:

[classicsoftware]

No, I've been holding on to these for a while. I didn't I was that stick in the eye. I didn't mean to be. I'm just a little tired of APPLE people calling out MS, when Apple is far more predatory and damaging than MS.

[pentachris]

I'm just a little tired of APPLE people calling out MS...

And if you don't think Apple fosters it a little bit, check out this link (http://www.maclife.com/article/leopard_laughs_at_network_pcs). (I find it amusing, myself...)

[Rick]

And if you don't think Apple fosters it a little bit, check out this link (http://www.maclife.com/article/leopard_laughs_at_network_pcs). (I find it amusing, myself...)

I like that

But ask a mac user what a samba server looks like :)


This is how Windows displays nas and servers :)
http://home.wi.rr.com/nasons/samba.jpg


Yes Samba does work.. with a little effort

[PrntRhd]

And a few more chinks in the "Mac is immune" to exploits smugness:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2210900,00.asp

[saphalline]

Are we done talking about the new Leopard then? Or are we still beating on Mac users?

I'm so confused! :confused:

[PrntRhd]

Saphalline, the Leopard thread was the other one you started.
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=60244

This is the "Mac is great" thread.
:)

[saphalline]

Ahh. Ok.

I was lost but now am found... ;)

So are we talking about what's wrong with Mac's in this thread? I've got a pile of complaints ready and waiting! :p Just like with every other OS I use... :rolleyes:

[PrntRhd]

The OP said Mac was better than anything else, so of course the gripes started flowing. Fire away!!

[bassman]

Sorry, just can't help myself :D sometimes I just don't know when to shut up :p
because mac owners don't think of their Macs as mere computers we think of them as members of our families,
Obvious signs of parental neglect. Mom must have given him a "See-N-Say" (http://www.fisher-price.com/us/seensay/) and told him it was his brother. :D :D The roundy round picture menu, the corny comic icons, when you point to them they tell you cute sayings...
This is a cow. It goes "MOOOOooooo"

OK, I will shut up now ;)

[George Hallam]

And if you don't think Apple fosters it a little bit, check out this link (http://www.maclife.com/article/leopard_laughs_at_network_pcs). (I find it amusing, myself...)

:D thats great, hmmm wonder what for linux :p

[SufferWell1396]

I think that link right there proves what classic was talking about.
Apple thinks theyre superior to MS.
If they were really that superior, why does Windows control 93% of the market right now?
I think that is a prime example of Apple thinking theyre superior to MS.
And they act like Mac is virus proof and crash proof.
Im sure if MS did that same thing
except put a Sad Mac logo for every networked mac that it could see
people would have an outrage. but people laugh it off from Apple.
Saph is one who doesnt have the "Mac Attitude" but there are many others who do.
Mac Mutt had it, but he has seemed to compromise.

I havent put in my 2 cents yet, but the way i see it is this:

Its all personal oppinion, you like Macs, have fun, you like Windows, go for it.
i mean, its an ongoing pointless agruement that makes everyone involved look stupid in the end. (and im talking the people who try to fight back saying Windows is better, not everyone here who made a compromise)
I personally, favor Windows over Mac, i dont like macs.
its just my thing, id run Windows over Mac if i had the choice.
Think about it, in the same context its like a music agruement
saying one type of music is better than the other, when its all personal oppinion.
So even though everyone has had a compromise here, the point of my whole thing is.

You can share your oppinions, but dont try to challenge other people's oppinions because its just that, an oppinion, what You think.

[pentachris]

why does Windows control 93% of the market right now?

It has less to do with the quality of Microsoft's products and more to do with a great deal they pulled off with IBM many years ago, along with some heavy-handed business practices that they have used since then.

Reading material here. (http://steve-parker.org/articles/microsoft/)

[George Hallam]

interesting reading there pentachris but i still think its unfair on M$ that they:
The EU case judged against Microsoft for bundling Windows Media Player with Windows, and fined them 497m Euros (around $590m), a record fine.

It also cannot, for example, use its OS monopoly to behave anticompetitively in its attempt to provide the software to run on mobile phones, nor to get itself into the TV industry. It can, of course, compete in whatever market it likes, but it may not use Windows' dominance on the PC to do so.

if they are not careful they will start to lose the market slowly but surely...

they day DX** goes to another OS company that is the day M$ will loose big time

[saphalline]

It has less to do with the quality of Microsoft's products and more to do with a great deal they pulled off with IBM many years ago, along with some heavy-handed business practices that they have used since then.Agreed. Superiority and majority have nothing to do with each other, even in the tech industry. Take a glance at the BETA vs VHS war 20 years ago for proof of that.


Ok, let the gripes flow!! Things I dislike about Mac OS X:

1) - The GUI has too much focus. Where are my keyboard shortcuts!? To wit, there is no way to shutdown/restart a Mac (in general) using the keyboard! :eek: WTF??

2) - Mac OS X and its UNIX underbelly don't get along well. Why can't nano open a frickin' RTF document on an HFS+ Journaled volume!? Why can't I touch a file with the proper extension and open it with Apple Works!? Where's the communication!?

3) - No easy uninstall. You practically need a crash-course in *NIX interaction and a crystal ball for Mac OS X's strange directory practices in order to completely remove a program! :eek: Why?? Why are there 2 or more places where the system stores .plist files and configs? And since all these files are stored in mass directory graves, you can't simply delete trees in Program Files like you can with Windows...

4) - Permissions suck! Why does Mac OS X have its own proprietary permission structure overlaid on top of FreeBSD!? Why is the only fix for various behavior issues a complete "permissions repair" on the system volume using Disk Utility? Isn't one of the jobs of an OS to handle that!? Why do I, as a user of one of the most advanced GUI's in existence, have to even know about that?

5) - Where's the user security? Get this: as a user with administrative rights, your password can act as root! :eek: You don't even have to be the primary account (default administrator) to su as root! In fact, there is no differentiation between root and et al! All it takes is your account's password and any program to which you give that password has root access!

6) - Power users get the shaft. For an OS with an incredibly pretty GUI, it sure takes a lot of work to get it right! Common tasks that Windows handles easily (such as file sharing) are hampered in Mac OS X due to the FreeBSD base. I can't count the number of times I've had to resort to the Terminal to get a task done! The GUI is so dumbed-down that power users often have to memorize which tasks can be done quickly with the GUI, and which tasks are better suited to the Terminal. CLI is considered to be archaic in the Windows world and defacto for the Linux world. Mac OS X is somewhere in between, and the mix just isn't right. Perhaps because CLI's and GUI's are somewhat mutually exclusive! :p

7) - Updates are a mixed bag. While the main Apple components (or sometimes just proprietary GUI overlays for open-source code) are updated often for security and compatibility concerns (kudos to Apple for updating programs for Leopard before it came out!) the base FreeBSD underpinnings are often ignored. Why does Tiger use a version of Apache that's 18 months old!? :eek: Mac OS X at every twist and turn is riddled with relatively ancient *NIX bases that are sometimes never updated until the next point release. This leaves security holes and errors underneath the GUI unless you pony-up for the new stuff. For instance, now that 10.5 is out, does that mean Apache for 10.3.10 is as good as it's gonna get? Yeah, it kinda does...


Other concerns about Mac OS X as a user experience are sometimes moot. For instance, the lack of software availability isn't a direct fault of Apple. They can't be expected to control other companies! And really, I don't understand why more software isn't available for Mac's considering the strong developer connections and tools that Apple provides. For crying out loud, even M$ makes Office for Mac's! :eek: When it comes down to it, program developers are just plain lazy. They don't want to put the money into Mac development, despite the fact that developing for Mac is half a step away from developing for *NIX, and vice versa! The only difference at that point is the GUI base, which would need to be done anyway. Not to say that Apple couldn't do more to actively recruit developers, but the fact of the matter is that Mac OS X already includes so much for PC users. Why make more stuff? At least, that's usually the common practice for Mac's, and honestly it has its merits. Safari, for instance, is a darn good OS-included browser! Not even FF can compete with Safari's Mac OS X dominance in terms of speed and efficiency! There are some nice open-source benefits to using FF on Mac OS X, but the details are nit-picky and only important to power users. There are no inherent benefits in using FF over Safari. IE vs FF, however, is an entirely different story!

Security? What's the big deal with security? If you're a Windows user or service Windows in any way, or if you're an admin and need to keep all your *NIX-based servers secure, this is a very big deal! However, for the purposes of common PC users, Mac OS X is relatively rock-solid! Yes, there are exploits and holes, but the fact that Mac OS X is based on FreeBSD means these are much less of a concern than on Windows. So while Mac OS X is technically less secure than a properly maintained Linux/Solaris workstation or server, it's still much closer to this than it is to Windows! Running a Windows system out-of-the-box is asking for trouble in a security sense! But a Mac? It's fine! Relatively speaking, it's difficult to infect a Mac, especially with the latest Apple updates. And don't even try to argue here unless you own a Mac! It's like the Wall of China compared to the US/Mexico border fence! :rolleyes: You can certainly breach the Wall of China if you know what you're doing and no one is standing guard ;) but you can't just stroll on through like you can with the broken border fence. Apples vs oranges. :p No comparison.

[mjc]

When it comes down to it, program developers are just plain lazy. They don't want to put the money into Mac development, despite the fact that developing for Mac is half a step away from developing for *NIX, and vice versa! The only difference at that point is the GUI base, which would need to be done anyway.




Well, mostly true...for a Mac you still have to compile for two different CPUs ...PowerPC and x86. And many software people don't really want to mess with that. Granted, at the source level it shouldn't matter and it should be a compile time problem...but most developers still don't want to mess with it.

People want software that either runs or install/run...not compile/install/run...although the compile step can be hidden behind the GUI and seem just to be a simple 'install'...if all the basic tools are present, which for a Mac, I don't know if they are...

[saphalline]

Apple has a unified run-time tool, though I've never known the name of it. Sort of like .NET but for Apple. It allows any code to run on any of their platforms. It's slow but it works. And this is what many developers are doing now, anyway.

Apple dropped support for PPC - they're only doing Intel now. Leopard takes this to the next level. There are certain "features" (ie, programs :p) of Mac OS X 10.5 that only work on Intel-based Mac's! They're drawing a hard line here, though not quite as hard as M$ did with Vista (even though I think they should have). After nearly two years of Intel-based Mac's, Apple is using 10.5 to lay down the law and urge people to upgrade. It really does make a difference, too! A top-of-the-line dual-G5 tower can barely keep up with a 1st-gen Mac Mini (the ones with Core Duo's instead of the newer Core 2 Duo's), and the dual-G5 is no match for a new iMac with 2 GHz+ C2D's! That's why Apple switched in the first place. IBM couldn't keep PPC up to snuff.

In essence, what you say may be true from a developer's perspective. They may not want to re-compile for every Mac. But then again, they aren't. Apple dropped PPC - they don't hold their developers to any higher standards. PPC-compiled code is slow as molasses these days! FF, for instance, takes about 2-3 times as long to open (vs Safari) on a PPC-based Mac as on an Intel-based Mac. The software is just getting slower. Everyone has moved on. I don't think I would be surprised to walk into an Apple store today, check the requirements on the software in the store, and find multiple titles that are Intel-only. Sad...

[mjc]

Yes...but remember, this whole 10.5 thing is still new...so while Apple may have officially dropped PPC support, software is going to lag behind, by at least a couple of months...and until a couple of weeks ago, what I said, earlier was very true. Now, while still true it is fast becoming irrelevant.

[saphalline]

I'll agree with you there. But I fail to see how this particular aspect is any different when it comes to WinXP/Vista. There again we see developers hitting a wall, but for a different reason. It's the kernel that's changed with Vista, not the CPU microarchitecture. And before Apple made the switch to Intel - what about that time period, when PPC was all there was? Mac OS X predates the Intel inclusion to the Apple hardware family, afterall.

It's a good point for the current state of Apple computers, and explains a lot over the last 2 years. But this issue of developers being lazy (or whatever it is) has been going on for a very long time. Then again, how long has "the Mac" been a compelling platform for software? I guess there's no easy answer for this, but I'll keep playing devil's advocate for Steve Jobs as long as he's standing at the front lines fighting off DRM like Aragorn against Sauron!

[bassman]

Where did Macmutt go? Did his See-N-Say get bwoken? I hope his little brother is OK.

Doohh, there I go again. OK, this time I Will shut up :D

[FrankSG]

Where did Macmutt go? Did his See-N-Say get bwoken? I hope his little brother is OK.

Doohh, there I go again. OK, this time I Will shut up :D

Well--I hope that we don't start doing what we criticized Macmutt for doing.
Know what I mean.....?

[saphalline]

Where did Macmutt go?Ehh, he probably got bored with us. Wasn't expecting an actual intelligent discussion on the topic from a "PC" forums! :p

Unless there's another Mac "fiend" out there who wants to show me how to update Apache on Tiger without using the Terminal? Hmmm?

[mjc]

Umm...Saph, I don't think it can be done.

I think I'd better clarify a little...

Explain it, that is...