File Systems

[spotz5]

How can a Win98 machine with the FAT32 file system and a Win2000 machine with the NTFS 5 file system exchange files with each other? They have different file systems, so what allows file to be exchange between the two?

[bassman]

The FAT and NTFS refers to how the OS stores and locates files. The actual file format is upto the application that creates it.

------------------
If I tell you to think for yourself, then you're not doing it.
.
.
This is not directed at those asking questions in order to gain knowledge. That shows you are thinking.

[Supa Dupa]

Hey spotz5,

The Win2k machine will see the Fat32 file system on the Win98 machine but Win98 will only recognize a FAT file system. If you ever look at a machine that is dual bootable between Win9x and Win2K, and Win2K is NTFS, you won't see the Win2K volume in the Win98 Explorer window, but you will see the Win98 volume when in Win2K. If you're going to use Win2K with Win9x, choose the option of Fat16 or Fat32.

Supa Dupa.

[David]

It looks like your questions is about two different PC's that are networked together. In that case, each machine takes care of figuring out its own file system (NTFS, FAT32, etc.) and making the data available via a standardized network service. (e.g. Microsoft networking.) Thus, the two machines can share files.

David

[Supa Dupa]

So if I connect, using a machine with Win 95a(FAT16), to a machine running Win2K(NTFS), and copy files to my hard drive, the networking software will convert the files in NTFS to FAT16? Please feel free to clear up any misconceptions I have on this topic. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Supa Dupa.

------------------
There's a hole in my memory, dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a whole in my memory, dear Liza, a hole.
Then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry, then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, disable it.

[pjungwirth]

I think bassman said it best in his first post. A filesystem doesn't change a file's data one bit (heh); it is just how the operating system organizes and stores the files. It also affects what "extra" information an operating system maintains about its files, such as name, last modification time, permissions, etc. That's why some filesystems support, say, longer names or lowercase characters while others don't. But none of that information is part of the file itself (unless you're talking about Macs).

So a jpeg (for example) could live on any filesystem and could be copied among filesystems.

It's not the networking software that does the conversion. The networking software just faithfully transfers the file data itself (along with some meta-information like file name), tells the OS to save it somewhere, and the OS handles the filesystem-specific details.

Hope this helps,

Paul
~{:-)

[iisbob]

Actually pjungwirth you're partially right; it is the OS that handles the actually file " read " using the network protocol software installed.

The reason W98 can read an NTFS file on a network is that W2000 handles the conversion for W98 when it requests a file on the network from an NT host; where as W2000 already has the built capability in it's code to read the standard FAT systems so it doesn't need any help.

If you're wondering why this works on a network and not on a local dual-boot, it's because this part of the conversion code is only included in the networking part of W2000. On a dual-boot machine it's best to keep both file systems as FAT32, so you can share files between drives with W98.

Most people don't realize that W2000 is written in C++, and there are 3rd party programs that would allow you to use W98 to read an NTFS system,if you had set it up that way. But it's not worth the hassle, and if you're really concerned about security-don't install W98 to begin with, just W2000 then you can use the NTFS and lock out users from any folder you choose ( or the entire system itself ).



------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[Supa Dupa]

Now I get it. I was unclear as to how a FAT machine read NTFS files. Thanks for the clarification iisbob. (I really should be paying more attention to Novell. I'll be doing this stuff in a few weeks.) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Supa Dupa

------------------
There's a hole in my memory, dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a whole in my memory, dear Liza, a hole.
Then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry, then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, disable it.

[bassman]

Dang, where is Ghost when you need him.
You fellas are on the right track, but not quite there. I will do the best I can to explain further but I may need to read my books more to make perfect sense http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Two OS's on one HDD do not work like a network, therefore, Windows 2000 (ntfs) Windows NT (ntfs) Windows 9X (fat16, fat32) Linux (ext2) Apple OSx (sorry, not sure) cannot access one anothers "File system" on the same HD.
They can however share info thru a Network Interface Card due to the NIC's muti-layer protocals. These protocals along with the system protocals you install in your network configuration, do all the decifering, packaging, sending, receiving, etc... of info.
Yes, you really can read something from a Mac with your Windows machine without some additional software (did you think everyone on the Internet had windows 98) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif
Anyway, Spotz, if your'e still around,I hope this answers your question. You did ask about from one machine to another.

------------------
If I tell you to think for yourself, then you're not doing it.
.
.
This is not directed at those asking questions in order to gain knowledge. That shows you are thinking.

[Supa Dupa]

I asked my instructor this morning and was told that TCP/IP is responsible for the translation, among other things and that I shouldn't be concerning myself with this subject just yet because I'm supposed to be familiarizing myself with Novell Netware Administrator. Anybody have their Novell certifications, by the way?

Supa Dupa



------------------
There's a hole in my memory, dear Liza, dear Liza, there's a whole in my memory, dear Liza, a hole.
Then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry, then disable it, dear Henry, dear Henry, disable it.

[Ghost_Hacker]

You rang http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Here's an outline of the process.( please note ,in this example, we are not using FTP/HTTP/SMTP or any other "internet protocol.")


An application submits an I/O request to operating system through an
application programmer interface (API) call.

The operating system (or the redirector by way of the int 21 hook) determines that the request is for a remote resource, and passes it to the redirector.

The redirector formats the I/O request as an SMB request and sends it to the server through the network.

The server receives the SMB and submits the I/O request to the server's local operating system, according to the parameters included in the SMB request


The server formats the operating system response (data returned if read,
return code if write, etc.) as an SMB response and sends it to the requesting workstation through the network.

The redirector passes the response back to the operating system.

The operating system passes the response to the calling application.




SMB is part of the CIFS protocol. The SMB packet contains many "fields" which control how the server and client communicate and the actions they take. However the actual data is held in the DATA Buffer. Here's a tidbit from the MSDN.

"The data portion of SMBs typically contains the data to be read or written, file paths, or directory paths. The format of the data portion depends on the message. All fields in the data portion have the same format, which in every case consists of an identifier byte followed by the data."


SMB is used by LINUX (SAMBA) and all versions of Windows.

However not by a Macintosh( without 3rd party support) The "MS supported" way to connect a Mac to a Windows server is with SFM or services for macintosh. This allows an NTFS or CDFS (Compact disk file system) volume to be shared by starting an appletalk server service on the Windows server.Then the installer creates a UAM folder on your hard drive. This folder contains the information needed to allow a Mac to use encryted NT security during the logon process. A Mac will then be able to mount the volume using "chooser" and transfer files using the appletalk protocol stack.


Hope this helps http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


EDIT: Anybody have their Novell certifications, by the way?
Yes, I have the CNA/CNE for Netware 3 and 4. I'm thinking of upgrading to an CNE 6 when it becomes available.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 08-31-2001).]

[bassman]

Yea, thats what I said http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif
Thanks for muddying that up Ghost http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I knew you would pick this one up soon.
I think we lost the original poster on this one. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

------------------
If I tell you to think for yourself, then you're not doing it.
.
.
This is not directed at those asking questions in order to gain knowledge. That shows you are thinking.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Yeah, we may have but I hope not. It's really one of those "more than you need to know " or want to know post http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif The information is for you and anyone else that likes to dig down into this stuff, maybe not so much for a "newbie".


Thanks for muddying that up Ghost Your Welcome http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 08-31-2001).]

[pjungwirth]

That's disappointing if we lost the original poster, but I have to say it's a fascinating topic!

It sounds like we're talking about two different things. I had in mind a TCP/IP application like an FTP client doing a get, where the network protocols handle file transfer (and directory structure, incidentally) then pass the data to the operating system for local storage.

I think this is also what Supa Dupa and bassman are talking about. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Ghost and iisbob seem to be talking about file sharing. I have to confess total ignorance on that one, but what you say makes sense. In file sharing you're doing more than passing a file; you're offering more or less transparent interaction with a whole filesystem. So there it makes sense that the hosting system would work analogously to a driver: an intermediary between the OS and the actual resource. (Is this an accurate depiction of what you're describing?)

With a dedicated linux box and a dual-boot laptop, I've been planning on researching samba, though my goal is more to share my printer than my files.

I must say this is fascinating stuff! So does NFS work similarly to SMB, only it's a different standard? (No NFS happening on my LAN; here it's just pure curiosity.)

You guys are great!

Paul
~{:-)

[David]

I believe NFS is quite different, and used mainly in Linux and Unix-like systems. It lets you mount a server's shared directory(ies) as part of the client's local directory structure.

David

[iisbob]

Geese Ghost i didn't give that much detail 'cause i was afraid to scare off any reader's who didn't understand how networks " work" -but you certainly gave everyone a what for!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Good job; everytime i've seen you post it's always been dead on the money ( and not a little too detailed sometimes, almost enough to scare me! )

Guess that's why you're the Ghost , huh?!! LOL http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)