Extra Crispy Athlons

[mjc]

Okay everybody, does this seem just a little too much to be coincedence for you?

Look at the the similarities, all three are 1.4GHz Athlon chips, two used the DragonOrb cooler...all three are fried!


<A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001936.html" TARGET=_blank>Total Meltdown
</A>

I think I killed it (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001927.html) / <A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001928.html" TARGET=_blank>Keychain
</A>

<A HREF="http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001937.html" TARGET=_blank>'Nother UnPosted Newbie
</A>


We've looked at possible installation errors, but one of the machines ran for a while, also explored lightning/power surges. The one machine every 12V device is now dead along with the PSU. The third one even shot sparks from the memory slot (sounds like a dead short somewhere...). All three had different PSU's all over 300W, and different motherboards.

The Dragon Orb is not on AMDs list of approved coolers...but according to Thermaltake (http://www.thermaltake.com/coolerMenu.htm) it is designed for AMD 1.5GHz and up.

I even called AMD support for some more info, here are some details from that call:

1. AMD does not recommend the Orb coolers because the pressure distribution when installing them is uneven and can lead to a cracked die. Which means a dead processor.

2. AMD does not recommend paste type thermal compounds, they do recommend the phase change thermal tape not the regular tape. The paste can be squeezed out when istalling the cooler, defeating the purpose of it.

3. They do not recommend the use of shims.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[sea69]

two ORBS and a shim ??

lol

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[not_fred]

A couple of points, if I may (see inter, below).

"1. AMD does not recommend the Orb coolers because the pressure distribution when installing them is uneven and can lead to a cracked die. Which means a dead processor."

-- I can see that, but having looked at a number of different designs (both in the specs and, in some cases, in hardware) I think several of them are susceptible to loading asymmetries during installation. In (partial, painful) agreement, it was clear from the pattern of the stock compound on bottom of my Dragon Orb 3 that the loading had NOT been symmetric. However, there is no apparent evidence even under moderate (hand-held) magnification of lost integrity in the ceramic or at the joint between ceramic and die. Neither was there any scarring of the soft copper surface on the bottom of the orb after I cleaned if off (that is part of why I cleaned it - trying to see if the copper had marked). IMHO, that isn't what caused my problem. I don't see how that could have lead to shooting smoke out of the RAM socket (I didn't actually see "sparks", tho' there may have been. I caught it in my peripheral vision as I looked to switch off power, then looked back to see a high velocity of smoke.)

"2. AMD does not recommend paste type thermal compounds, they do recommend the phase change thermal tape not the regular tape. The paste can be squeezed out when istalling the cooler, defeating the purpose of it."

-- Now, that one doesn't make much sense. Speaking as a spacecraft engineer of two decade's experience, we use thermal gaskets and compounds all the time. I have run hundreds of hours of fully-developed (to steady-state response) contact conductance tests under vacuum conditions over the years. Whether paste or wax-based, the joint is thermally superior if the compound DOES get out of the way: if it squeezed out, it is because the two sides of the interface were making contact. If it squeezed "out" then it also squeezed INTO the intestitial spaces at the interface, increasing the total effective contact area between the three elements of the structural/mechanical interface (metal/compound/metal). Metal/metal contact with compound filling and spanning the mutual surface irregularities gives better heat transfer than a metal/compound/metal interface. The only time "squeezing" could be a problem is if the compound got removed before final seating, leaving some of the interstitial spaces un-spanned by compound. In "the business" we deal with that by a vertical approach corridor being designed in with alignment pins. It is difficult to hold that corridor in the Socket design, since there are no pins.

"3. They do not recommend the use of shims. "

-- That one DOES make sense. It increases the probability of metal/metal contact across the joint, and decreases the average distance to be spanned by compound. Again, increasing metal/metal contact improves the contact conductance. On the other hand, use of a shim WOULD distribute the load more evenly due to compression of the inevitable wave in the shim (manufacturing tolerances).

I may have been somewhat disingenuous - I might know how a couple of things work. But, I have a lot of respect for the eletrical techs I have worked with, and I know I'm not their equal when it comes to assembly. Education is expensive...

Hey - I gotta go put my 3-year-old to bed.

Later edit (after bedtime story) - I'd be more interested in the details of how the boards were supported during installation. It didn't take much to realize that the boards can flex, even if on a "firm" surface. By "supported", I mean the details of where the load transferred into the board: onto soldered pin ends? dedicated support points? how many points? how much spacing? under what loading condition? Even given all that data, we still might not find any conclusion...and none of them would explain "Mt. St. Helens" (a fair comparison...I watched it from a safe distance that morning...)

All that said, I noted with interest the same similarities that you pointed out. That was part of the reason I made my initial post.

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I'm only the Engineer...I have no idea how it works

[This message has been edited by not_fred (edited 09-10-2001).]

[mjc]

Actually, not_fred, I think it is more because if the paste does squeexe out and short out the bridges they don't want to be responsible for it...it is easier to say don't use it.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[not_fred]

mjc -

Good point. Obviously more to this than just thermal...see also related heatsink guide response...but I'll bet you're point has more to do with the matter. On the other hand, my educational experience the other night was with the stock PCM "tape" that came with the Orb.

BTW - from the limited drawings, I can't see any signficant design difference between the (recommended) ThermalTake Volcano clip and the (not recommended) DO3. Comment?

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I'm only the Engineer...I have no idea how it works

[mjc]

The tech I talked to said that the Volcano doesn't have the same problems and it will go on straighter and sit squarer than the Orb...whatever that really means I don't know. It seems to me that if the base of the unit is large and flat enough to cover the chip then it should work. But I think there is more behind this one too, than just engineering.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[not_fred]

Originally posted by mjc:
The tech I talked to said that the Volcano doesn't have the same problems and it will go on straighter and sit squarer than the Orb...whatever that really means I don't know. It seems to me that if the base of the unit is large and flat enough to cover the chip then it should work. But I think there is more behind this one too, than just engineering.



Understood...engineering isn't even close to the whole story on anything. Still, it makes me wonder...thanks for the put(s). 'nuff for me on the subject unless something new happens...

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I'm only the Engineer...I have no idea how it works

[GeorgeTheGreek]

I also had Major booting problems when changed the Dragon Orb3 with a Gladiator one. It was Cpu's fault. The core was a bit damaged.

Abit KT7A-Raid
Thunderbird AYHJA Y 1400@1630

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Recycle yourself, be an organ and blood donor.

[YODA74]

Have you tried Volcano series??

[diurnal]

I have used the dragon orb on several cpus and had no problems with them.The main thing i have figure out is the core of the cpu must be touching the heatsink, if not or there is uneveness the cpu will fry instantly.When you put on heatsinks use the thermal compound, not the tape , i heard the paste is better than the tape and in my experience the paste is better. If there is tape on the bottom of the heatsink , remove it with kerosene, and make sure to water it down so the cpu will not explode due to the kerosene. Also make sure all remnants of thermal compound is not on any of the bridges or nearby component, just on the core of the cpu. Also make sure the compound is spread very thin , dont just squirt out the bottle on the core, even it out with a ruler or something. To remove remnant on the bridges use isopryl alcohol. Another point is when you put the heatsink on ,with paste, take off the heatsink and look on the bottom of the heatsink and you should see the core identation, the grease will make a identation. If you see half of a identation or no identitation, do not boot cpu cause its not touching the core.And one more point, when you put the heatsink on take out the motherboard and look at the mobo and see if the heatsink is on right ,not uneven. You probably know much of this info ,but im just spreading my experieces.

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Sledgehammer will save the day!

[iisbob]

Good show diurnal, 'cept i would recommend using a credit card to remove the thermal tape, alot less messy than Kerosene, then just wipe it down with rubbing alcohol.

I personally like the Globalseries and the Volcano( i'm using the Volcano 5 on my Athlon MP right now ).

Biggest problem i usually see is people get into too much of a rush installing the CPU, or they get to ham-handed with it and crack/break the die. The best way to do it, is to completely remove the Motherboard from the system and install your CPU/heatsink on a sturdy flat surface where you have plenty of elbow room. (Try not to put your tea too near tho, or you'll get a messy mobo http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif )



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iisbob
"640K ought to be enough for anybody. - Bill Gates, 1981"
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[Whyzman]

Ok Guys and Gals,

We've AMD from MJC's post saying they don't recommend paste, rather a special thermal tape, and Diurnal and Iisbob (I gathered that you we're agreeing with Diurnal with just a better way to remove pre-applied tape)...What's a mother to do besides feeding your kid Wonder Bread? Boy, that betrays my age! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

May all your dealings in life be win/win!

Whyzman

[trinity266]

Compuplus has agreed to replace my CPU but obviously i do not want to fry another one. Definately right about the shims. I had heard many stories of CPU's getting cooked by the same means. Ironically i bought the shim to protect the CPU. Oh well- i am learning..hopefully. Based on what i see hear i am thinking differnt HSF as well? by the way the burning smell seems to be the pre installed heatsink tape- not the processor. It still seems to be fried though. Thank you for the warnings/advice. I could have probably saved myself some grief by looking into things more ahead of time. Ask first- boot later. Thanks again- perhaps there is hope yet.


Newbie with the keychain http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Reid]

Phase change "patches" usually have a protective plastic covering that must be removed before attaching the heat sink. If left on, it could cause the overheating and burning smell.

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reido@my-deja.com

Friends don't let friends install Windows ME

[trinity266]

I did remember to take the plastic off- though i would not put that kind of mistake beyond me.