I'm New Here,Wanted to Dual Boot Vista with Linux

[Luffypsp]

Helo everyone,

i have a windows vista ultimate 32-bit, Intel core 2 duo processor,1GB Ram,ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro Video Card amd 250 GB Hard drive.i have windows installed on c drive for 130 GB and d drive for 100 GB.and i dont have any space left.

btw before i started to ask about dual booting,how can i test if my pc hardware have its software drivers for linux??

and can i test linux first before installing into my HD??

thnk you...:D

[PrntRhd]

Easy to test drive Linux, download and burn a LiveCD of the distro you want to test. Set the BIOS to boot from CD first, insert the Live CD and boot to it. Do note the operation will be slower on the LiveCD vs an actual install. if you find a distro to be to your liking, install a second HDD and install Linux to that if your current drive space is limited.
You can also make a Linux partition on the current HDD and install to that one, boot loader function is similar in both instances, will request selection of the OS and boots that partition.

[Luffypsp]

thnxs for the reply,but this post is gonna be a lot of questions...but before that,i manage to get a knoppix livecd and ubuntu 7.10 for standard pc desktop edition livecd.

ok here's the questions,

1)How do i set the BIOS to boot from CD??is it dangerous??
2)How to install a second HDD??
3)is it possible to install linux into the same drive i installed my windows??
4)if the 3rd question if not possible,here's i'm planning to do,i have 2 partition already.c drive for my windows and d drive for my downloads,musics,media and etc....how can i create another unallocated space to install linux without having to reformat my HD??i dont want to lose the D drive stuffs.people said on vista i can go to disk management to set up the free space but i also heard
that some people having trouble using it so i'm scared the free space i made will gone to waste.
5)how much space i need to install linux??

P.S. i dont know how to do the dual boot but i'll ask about it later when i made my mind on which distro to choose.

thnxs again....

[Rick]

1. Enter your Bios setup ( press DEL or what ever key combo is required )
2. Depending on the system you have ( Pata or sata ) just a matter of connecting it to data cable and power
Setting it correctly ( Pata) and let the bios find it.
The partition and format as needed
3. NOT A GOOD IDEA.. Put Linux on it's own drive or partition
4.backup your data- BACKUP YOUR DATA-backup your data onto another drive or disks ( cd or dvd)
Before using ANY disk partition software back up your data
Their are a number of disk partitioning programs out there

I'll leave the recommendations for these to others
I don't like or use any of them. ( prefer to use OS partitioning )

5. for testing trial use 20Gig is a good starting point

PS..The boot loader will be added automatically to your system when you install Linux

[Luffypsp]

1)is it a must to set the BIOS that way??can i just put the cd in and run it normally as i always did??or i put the cd in and restart my computer to boot from cd??

2)i dont think i understand this,but i think i have a sata but didnt sure.

3)ok

4)i heard people always saying that so ok,but can i use the partitioning program provided by my vista??like right clicking my computer and go to disk management??(i dont remember what to choose after right clicking my com to go to disk management....)

5)i think i'll go with 30GB??is it ok??or does linux's programs needs more than that??

P.S. oo i see...thnxs...

[mjc]

1. If you can stick a CD in the drive and reboot your computer and have it boot to the CD, then your BIOS is already set up. Otherwise, the change you were asked to make is perfectly safe to make. All it is doing is changing the order the computer looks for bootable drives. If it doesn't find one, it moves on to the next item in the list.

4. It is actually better to use a third party utility and resize the partition outside of the operating system. Yes, the tools included in the OS can be used...

5. 20 to 30 GB is more than enough for most Linux installs...way more.

[PrntRhd]

1) It is necessary to boot to the CD before booting into Windows. The PC will boot slowly into Linux and detect the hardware as part of the process when set to CD-ROM first.

4) Linux partitions/bootloader is different from Windows, different tools for different functions. Vista allows you to reserve some space for additional partitions but will not make that partition active for Linux.
The reason I mentioned a second HDD is it is safer for the Windows installation to do it on a second drive. If you want to wipe the install as part of a different distro it is safer rather than wipe the one with Windows on it.

5) Should be fine, just test the distros before installing one and having remorse later. Nice thing is most distros are free, so you are only out your time and some download time if you make a mistake, you can do it over with another distro if desired.

[Luffypsp]

oooo ok i understand a bit but not all yet...thnx,so before i make the other partition i need to try the livecd first right(it doesnt require any HD space right)??

can you guys give the link for any good partition manager??i mean a safe one??and a step by step guide on how to use it...thnxs...

P.S man i've never seen that number of posts.you guys are awesome.the most post i've ever seen is around 6,xxx only...but man you guys...and 3 mods is helping me.thnxs to all...i think i'm gonna stick with this site forever...

[PrntRhd]

Using Live CD does not change anything on your PC since you are not reading/writing to the HDD. No HDD space used, only RAM.

Linux distros include free partition tools as part of the setup package.

[Luffypsp]

ooo so when i want to install linux,it'll automatically have the option to make a partition??

[Rick]

ooo so when i want to install linux,it'll automatically have the option to make a partition??

yes it can and will BUT
By default Linux will use the Unused ( unpartitioned ) segment of your hard drive

IT will NOT make changes to existing partitions unless you tell it to
Then it will give you the option to remove/delete a partition.
This if allowed will destroy all the data on that partition

ALL partition programs are dangerous to your data
A few can render your drive useless

Unless you understand how they work and what needs to be done.
DON'T USE them

[Luffypsp]

so how can i get free space to install linux??i'm so scared to break my drive...

[Rick]

The easy way is also simple.

Backup ALL the data and files on a drive or partition
preferably a second drive
Then delete the partition on that drive ( will cause lose of all data on drive/partition)
Then make the partition again but smaller and format it.
Then restore your backed up data to the drive again.

You should then have free space for linux

In your case you would delete the second (100gig) or extended partition
then make a new extended partition of say 80gig
Then exit the partition program and format the new 80gig partition

Once finished you could then boot to a linux distro and tell it to install in the Unused space
giving linux 20 gig of space

[Rick]

A quick and easy way to backup your data with the 130 and 100 drive partition setup you have

Check the amounts of used and unused space on both partitions C+D

If you have 50 used and 80 unused on the C: drive
and you have less than 80 used on the D: drive

Go to the C: drive and make a folder
Name it whatever you like
then double click on the new folder
Close all other folder

Then open another explorer window and open the D: drive
Highlight Everything in the D: drive folder ( CTRL A )
Then drag and drop everything into the first explorer (newfolder) window

Check the files to make sure it is all there
A simple way is to highlight everything in that folder and then right click it and select properties .. Should give same results as it would if you did it to the contents of the D: drive

Once done you can now use the windows vista install disk to delete the extended partition and create a new extended partition a little smaller and format it
Simple boot off the Vista disk. when asked if you ant to repair or install.
select install, custom and then when asks where tell it show the drive and partitions.
Once you see the 2 partitions listed
select the 100gig and press the delete ( Note windows will display the Key to delete the partition. ) it is NOT the "Delete key"

Once deleted you should have windows create a new partition
select the unused space should be 100Gig
and when asked how much to use
enter the amount in numeric or percent
to give linus 20gig use 80% for 30 gig use 70% forthe vista extended partiton

Remember you Must include the "%" when entering the size in this way
Just delete the remaining amount listed ( may be listed as 102400) and enter 70% in the box and then create

READ all the prompts during the process

[Luffypsp]

thynxs for the guide man,really appreciate it.but before you replied i found this guide - http://apcmag.com/5046/how_to_dual_boot_vista_with_linux_vista_installed_ first

it looks easier but is it safe??

[Rick]

Sounds good
BUT
I would worry about shrinking the vista partition

After a full backup as above
I would give it a try on the second partition

I haven't tested the shrink feature in Vista as yet
But it should be safe

However I am all to aware of what can happen to data when things go wrong
So do a full data backup first

[Rick]

I just gave this a try using a 150gig in my laptop

It worked reasonable well

It shrunk the drive by the entered amount 20gig ( I enter it as 20240) and it did in fact free up 19+ meg

I am online and sending this reply in less than 1 hour total time using the linux livecd installed on my laptop

Only one small problem. and that is with firefox
It is still under lining everything I type as misspelled

Same problem I had when I ran it earlier from the cd :(
EDIT: Found the problem.. In Firefox 2.0.0.6 for Linux You MUST right click on an underlined word and select the correct language :( doesn't follow or update when you edit preferences in firefox :(


The shrink feature in Vista does work :)
it requires free space on the drive

[Luffypsp]

thnxs for testing for me man...i wish i could repay you...hmmm so the only problem is the firefox and it can be fixed right as you said??

so which one do you recommend , the guide in the link or your guide??i think the guide in the link is easier huh??and btw can i do it like this - i shrink the 130GB to 105GB and use the 25GB for linux??so that means i have 3 drive right??

btw i got a question,after i run the livecd to test which linux i like,then how do i exit it??just remove the cd or shut down first??


P.S - i got ubuntu 7.10, knoppix, and linuxmint liveCD's,which one is the best from your opinion and have the GNOME desktop(if i'm not mistaken its a mac-like desktop)...

[Rick]

Use the guide in the link you found..
Just make sure you let each item finish..
DON'T stop anything midway

Yes you can set it to anything size you want. 25 is more than sufficient..

Linux sets up drives it's own way
Windows won't see them..
But linux will see them all.. ( Both windows and linux drives )

To exit Linux press CTRL-ALT and Backspace keys
Then the logoff and shutdown menu will come up

The distro you use is up to you.
Thats what the livecd's are for.
Find one you like

I'm not sure what distro uses Gnome by default.
But it is one of the desktops available to you

You can have it added after the install and select it in configuration

Be ready to run the updater when your done with the install
In the case of my copy .
it took 178 updates ( Everything available )

Took about an hour from start to finish
In fact it took less time to update than the last clean install of windows XP-sp1 with all of it's updates and didn't require a single reboot

[Luffypsp]

ooo thnxs man,i'm gonna boot my first livecd in a couple of hours from now.i'm uploading some games so thats why....what do you mean by "Just make sure you let each item finish.." anyway??

and i just have to follow all the steps step by step in the link right??

i guess thats my questions for now,maybe a lot more to come after i successfully installed it or during installation.thnxs to all who helped and especially to Rick,you've helped a lot....thnxs again.

[Luffypsp]

another question please, if i use the shrinking method in the link to make my 130GB smaller(which is where my windows is installed),is it gonna be side effects to it??since you said i need to backup all data as the process might cause some data to lost...

[jlreich]

Anytime you move or resize partitions there is a risk of data lose. Particularly when shrinking partitions. Make sure you have plenty of free space in the partitions you wish to shrink is the biggest thing. Also it is wise to defrag before proceeding.

I have worked with partitions many many times over the years and only experienced data corruption once. That was be cause I shrank a partition that was too full.

Make backups of any important data. This is something you should do regardless.

[Luffypsp]

i have 92.8 GB free of 130 GB.so is it ok??and the drive has about 62 GB free of 100GB....btw which one is safer to be shrinked??the c drive(where windows installed) or d drive(where all my media and other stuff is placed)...i think it is safer to do the d drive because i'm afraid the windows will corrupted but i want to shrink it as it is bigger....but i'll follow whichever you guys recommend...

thnxs...

[jlreich]

Either one has plenty of free space. The risk is small really, but it is a risk. It's up to you which one you prefer to shrink. If you make a backup the risk is negated. It's up to you.

[Luffypsp]

how to make a backup of the windows??it got a lot of hidden files.....

[Rick]

If you use the Vista partition shrink
Vista will protect itself. so use the C: drive

Run Diskcleanup first.
Then defrag if needed
Then shrink it the amount you want..

When I said let it finish above
I Mean Don't interrupt it..

Once it starts don't get in a rush.
In fact it is a good idea to turn OFF all other applications..

including all the gadgets or music or anything else you have running that are not required for vista and the shrink program to work

I even disconnected the network cable to prevent any auto updates from running unannounced

[Luffypsp]

where to find the dis cleanup??and i have tuneup utilities 2008,can i use it to defrag the disk??

thnxs Rick....

[Paul Komski]

which one is the best from your opinion and have the GNOME desktop
To get started, Ubuntu would be my choice for a default Gnome Desktop and Knoppix for a KDE desktop.

Never done it before but I just tried the Vista Disk Management to shrink a sole 111 GiB partition. It would only allow 45 GiB of "Shrink Space" but it did the resizing in seconds! Its fine as far as it goes but the DiskManager is restricted to shrinking, expanding, creating and deleting and one has no control over when it creates primary or logical partitions. I still think that BiNG (in my sig) is the best partitioner around - particularly if you want to be able to resize or move(slide) or copy/paste partitions. I have never had loss of data with it but I do run chkdsk beforehand as well as backing-up vital data first. That is, I agree, a must with any repartitioning. Chkdsk is I think more important than defragmenting a volume before partition manipulation and in any case I never defrag without chkdsk first. Perhaps if I had defragmented first it would have allowed me a larger "shrink space". It looks as if it "chops off" the end of the partition in a manner that has no effect on the files in the file system and if that is the case it should be very safe to use from within windows. It seems that it will only shrink/expand NTFS and not FAT volumes and that is probably a safety thing since it ie easier to manipulate the MFT than the FATs (with their fixed position) whether shrinking or ezpanding.

! have tuneup utilities 2008,can i use it to defrag the disk??If its compatible with Vista it should be fine but there is nothing wrong with the native defragmenter.

btw which one is safer to be shrinked??the c drive(where windows installed) or d drive(where all my media and other stuff is placed)...i think it is safer to do the d driveI think the way Vista shrinks is going to be safe regardless of the partition. The more logical reason for shrinking D is that you will have unallocated space at the end rather than in the middle of the drive. 3rd Party partitioners give you more flexibility in how and where your total unallocated space will finish up. If you are going to use Vista then see whether C or D is going to give you the greater shrink space before committing yourself.

One point about installing Linux to the HDD is that the boot loader goes to the MBR by default in which case I recommend making a backup of the MBR beforehand. Otherwise consider (if you have a FDD) of installing the boot loader to a floppy diskette. That way you wont interfere with the Vista boot processes. Dont rush to install to the hard drive. If you have lots of RAM the Live CD will work very well.

1)is it a must to set the BIOS that way??can i just put the cd in and run it normally as i always did??or i put the cd in and restart my computer to boot from cd??
It's possible it will just boot to a CD if that is how the boot order is currently set. Otherwise you must change the boot order. On some systems (most Dells and Foxconns that I have come across) there is a different hotkey to press to present you with a boot device selector. Another approach is to try a utillity such as a SBM boot floppy (also in my sig).

You really could save yourself a lot of headaches by getting a second hard drive and use that as the experimental/linux one.

[Luffypsp]

If its compatible with Vista it should be fine but there is nothing wrong with the native defragmenter.

One point about installing Linux to the HDD is that the boot loader goes to the MBR by default in which case I recommend making a backup of the MBR beforehand. Otherwise consider (if you have a FDD) of installing the boot loader to a floppy diskette. That way you wont interfere with the Vista boot processes. Dont rush to install to the hard drive. If you have lots of RAM the Live CD will work very well.

thnxs for the info but i dont understand the first paragraph - native defragmenter and 2nd paragraph - bout the boot loader thing,what if i dont make abackup of the MBR thing??and whats MBR btw??

[Paul Komski]

Vista has its own defragmenter - hence it is called native - it doesnt need a defragmenter added. RClick on any drive letter in Computer and from Properties select Tools.

The MBR is the very first sector of the hard drive and it contains a list of the primary partitions on the hard drive. In a single boot situation the primary partition that is flagged as active is the one that gets booted. Until you add Linux this will the one flagged for Windows to boot from.

Linux uses a different boot loader (GRUB or LILO) and not the native (that word again) bootstrap code in the MBR and this can be placed in a number of positions. It can overwrite the MBR (the default position) and then create its own multi-boot menu to allow you to choose which OS to start up. This overwrites the original code created for loading windows. If you want to avoid overwriting this you can direct the install to use a floppy or indeed another partition and not the MBR to hold GRUB or LILO. Using another partition is more complicated because you must then install a 3rdParty boot manager such as BiNG or BootMagic or XOSL to choose between the Windows and the Linux system partitions. It does however keep the two installations independent of each other.

If you want to install Linux and use the MBR and also be capable of getting the original or the new MBR back you might want to back it up.

You can wipe off the Linux code and replace the native Windows code by running fixmbr from the recovery console of a WinXP installation CD and there must be an equivalent from Vista's installation DVD.

At the moment most hardware behaves "in legacy fashion" vis a vis Vista but there are moves afoot that will make multibooting with Vista more complicated. Some of the complexities are already outlined (http://www.multibooters.co.uk/) and others will come into play as EFI firmware (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firmware/efibrief.mspx) comes more and more into play.

It is for those sorts of reasons that keeping the two installations as separate from one another as possible may be beneficial in the long run - even if there is a learning curve involved. Using two distinctly different hard drives has many benefits that will become apparent over time.

[Rick]

First what is and where is diskcleanup

disk Cleanup is a MS utility that will allow you to cleanup after windows
It will find and list all most all the temp files on your hard drive as well as many other types of files that you can delete to free up space


Start/programs/accessory/system tools


The way shrink works in Vista
It calculates how much space is in use then allows you to shrink by a percentage of the remaining free space


MBR is Master Boot Record
It is a location on the hard drive that is marked and tells the system what is going on in the drive and how or where to look for a boot device/loader

native defrag is the defrag program included with windows
For what your going to be doing it will work

Do a search for an MBR backup utility

[Paul Komski]

The way shrink works in Vista
It calculates how much space is in use then allows you to shrink by a percentage of the remaining free space
Is this an opinion or a fact. I was surprised by how little shrinkage a clean installation of Vista (using up 15GiB of 111GiB so 96GiB available) allowed; just 46 of the 96 available. Perhaps you are right and it is approx 50% but the other surprise was that, in my case, it was almost instantaneous. I read this as being due possibly to the fact that the last currently used sector on the HDD might be at that position and therefore the partition could be truncated at that point. If "stuff" was placed towards the end of the drive then perhaps the shrinking would also entail some defragmentation and compaction and thus take longer.

[Rick]

Is this an opinion or a fact.


I read it in one of the MS windows web site forums..

Can't find it at the moment
This hotel wifi connection is very very slow and I don't have the link with me on this laptop

[Paul Komski]

Anything that helps to build up one's cerebral database of how this "monstrosity" works is of value.

;)

PS I hate the way that Vista's Defragmenter gives you no graphic and no progress meter.

:mad:

[Luffypsp]

hmmm guys i tried the ubuntu livecd but i cant connect to internet,i usually auto connected when logged into vista.but it has the 'x'(means not connected) on ubuntu...i'm using router btw .....and how do i know that other hardware have its driver when i'm on ubuntu??

[Rick]

Is your router wifi or hardwired ?

If wifi you must open the network control ( tray icon or in system control)
Then select the network listed in range and tell it to connect the first time
After that it should auto connect.
IF you have security set on the wifi be sure to add the login

I'm not sure of the menu listing in Ubunta
But it should have a tools and system configuration area and at least one program to setup and or monitor your hardware

In the hardware configuration it should list all hardware and at the bottom of the list it will/should have Other!
In that area if listed will be any unknown hardware..

Sorry I can't be more specific
But I don't Ubunta livecd to give you the exact programs.


Compare your hardware listed in vista to what linux shows.
It should match

[Luffypsp]

i got hardwired router since its definitely not wifi....

yea i got to the hardware part,but i dont remember the vista one so i'm gonna boot to it again.but this time i need to know how to get connected so i can ask straight from that....

and do you mean if the hardwares in ubuntu match with vista,it'll have the software drivers??

you dont have ubuntu then what are you using??

[Luffypsp]

i think the only problem i have is cannot connect to internet,once its fixed i'll start the dual booting process...so guys please help....

[Paul Komski]

Linux is usually very, very good at supporting most Ethernet Cards that I have had cause to use with it connecting by a cable to a router or directly to a Broadband "Modem". Wireless and DialUpNetworking takes more configuring as a rule - but that's not the case here is it?

Which version of Ubuntu are you using and where is the X that you refer to? There is normally a connection icon (top right of the display) with an orange exclamation mark if not connected. Right click on it for some additional information.

Is your NIC on board or on a card? If on board what make/model of PC or motherboard?

What is the Ubuntu output of ifconfig from a console.

[Luffypsp]

i'm using ubuntu 7.10 ......and the x thing,its almost the same as the orange exclamation mark - no connection...

whats the NIC thingy,dont understand and i dont know about it even if i understand.....model of pc/mtherboard - Intel Core 2 Duo Processor @ 2.2 Ghz

dont remember the output....is it from the command prompt??

[Rick]

i got hardwired router since its definitely not wifi....

yea i got to the hardware part,but i dont remember the vista one so i'm gonna boot to it again.but this time i need to know how to get connected so i can ask straight from that....

and do you mean if the hardwares in ubuntu match with vista,it'll have the software drivers??

you dont have ubuntu then what are you using??


I use Mandriva ( was known as mandrake till name change)

If you look at the vista list of hardware and then match it to the linux list
You will be able to see if everything is properly identified and configured

If the NIC is identified and setup correctly
On the hardwired network it should have found and connected to the network automatically
UNLESS you have some type of security setup in the router that is preventing ..

While your in vista
Check the network settings for anything special

[Luffypsp]

i dont know anything special on network setting while on vista,and how can i access the internet on vista if the router is preventing it...

btw i try the command line and i typed this - sudo pppoeconf nd it says no working ethernet card was found....is that mean my card didnt compatible??

[mjc]

Is your network card an add-in card or is onboard?

Was it detected during the install?

Not every network card has the driver module preloaded, in every distro...so there is a chance, if it isn't detected, that you will need to manually load (and edit a config file) the driver module.

In a console, in Linux, type lspci > pci.txt (the text file will be saved in your home directory). Copy and paste the contents of the text file here...

[Luffypsp]

hmmm i dont know...whats the diff betwwen add in and onboard??

during installation??when??you mean the drivers installation on vista??of course it was detected.if in linux,i havent install anything.

how to manually load it??by doing this?? - In a console, in Linux, type lspci > pci.txt (the text file will be saved in your home directory). Copy and paste the contents of the text file here...

where do i type those Ispci thingy??

[Rick]

Are you telling us that you can't access the network or internet with Vista ?


i dont know anything special on network setting while on vista,and how can i access the internet on vista if the router is preventing it...



Were you able to access the net before with this system?
under vista or any other operating system ?
Using this machine ?

[Luffypsp]

no,right now i'm using vista replying this message,no problem with the net on vista before and after i boot the livecd.the only problem is i cant get to the net on linux.....

[mjc]

OK...you are using a Linux Live CD...they often have fewer drivers preisntalled. So, in the console/terminal/command line while in the LiveCD, you type the lspci command.

[Rick]

Ok

You need to double click on the network icon and see if it lists any errors
You can also tell it to connect

If double click doesn't work
Right click on the tray icon and then use /check the configure menu item..

to Open a console
In the menu look for tools
the If you have KDE look for Konsole

I'm sorry to say I have to go to work and won't be back online
Till tomorrow ..
So someone else will have to pick it up from here..


Work another 4 letter word :(

[Luffypsp]

@mjc - you'll be online until when??i'll boot into linux an hour from now and will take some time to go to vista back since i cant post through linux yet.

@Rick(maybe mjc can answer me) - the double clicking thing,on vista or linux??if vista,it says its connected to network,no errors...if linux,yet to try....

[Paul Komski]

whats the NIC thingyNIC=Network Interface Card=Network Adapter; the component into which an Ethernet Cable plugs; a card in a slot or can be on-board.

model of pc/mtherboard - Intel Core 2 Duo Processor @ 2.2 GhzYou have described the type of CPU but not given the Make and Model of the board or PC. ( Dell Dimension 3000 or Asus A8NE would be examples of a PC and motherboard respectively).

Applications >> Accessories >> Terminal will give you a command prompt.

[Luffypsp]

ooo i see, sorry for that,its Acer Aspire M1610....

btw i have bigger problems,but seriously i did it the normal way as i always did to boot ubuntu,but i tried last night,it showed the loading screen and "input not supported" appear in the middle of my monitor,then its blinking a few times until this message appear - [[ The Display Server has been shutdown about 6 times in the last 90 seconds.it is likely that something bad is going on.Waiting for 2 min before trying again on display ]]

so i wait for two minutes and itss blinking again and gave this maessage again.i trited a few times but no success.so i tried booting linuxmint and knoppix.linux mint gave the same result as ubuntu but knoppix run normally....

so please help again....

[mjc]

Ok, the distro you are using and your video card don't get along too well...there should be a 'cheat sheet' (usually F1 or F2) that tells you the different boot options. There should be at least one other video mode...try that.

And if you decide to go with this distro, then you will need to install the proper video drivers afterwards.

[Paul Komski]

With 7.10 CD try highlighting the second boot option: Start Ubuntu in Safe Graphics Mode

I would also suggest maybe checking the MD5 of the iso you downloaded because you appear to have two problems; one to do with video and one to do with the networking interface. Knoppix probably has the best record for good hardware detection.

[Luffypsp]

yeah i've decide to use ubuntu.ok how about if i just go straight on dual booting it into my HDD??will my internet and all other things work??where to find the drivers??

and if its not working how can i remove it??

[Paul Komski]

I would try and get the internet working from the CD first. If you can get that functional all sorts of updates and add-ons are extremely easy to install using apt-get (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto?highlight=%28howto%29) or the synamptics (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SynapticHowto?highlight=%28howto%29) package manager.

Did you check the MD5 sum of the Ubuntu ISO? (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToMD5SUM?highlight=%28howto%29)

Others have had problems with the same system (https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/20250) to the extent of getting another PCI card. So can you ping anything like that poster?

Does the Knoppix CD give you internet access?

and if its not working how can i remove it??
If installed with either apt-get or synaptic to install you just use the same package to uninstall.

[Luffypsp]

no the knoppix also didnt give the internet access....

and how do i check the md5 sum,i dont see any of the command option in my iso direcory,or is it my mistake??honestly i dont really understand on how to check it,so hope you guide me step by step.btw i have this ubuntu - [[ubuntu-7.10-desktop-i386]],is it the right one for my pc??

[Paul Komski]

It's the correct download distro and I gave a link to how to check the MD5 sum.

I would seriously think about getting a known compatible PCI/PCIe card NIC and disable the on-board one. It could save you a lot of grief in the long run particularly since Knoppix seems inflicted with the same "disease".

Possibly This One (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122109) because in the blurb there is: "it seems they work great for Linux"

[Luffypsp]

yeah i know you gave the link,but i still dont understand....

what you mean i have to put a new PCI card??meaning opening my pc??how to know my NIC card??btw this is my network adapter - SiS191 Ethernet Controller....

[Paul Komski]

A list of the checksums for Gutsy (7.10) (http://mirrors.gigenet.com/ubuntu/7.10/MD5SUMS). Yours would appear to be:
d2334dbba7313e9abc8c7c072d2af09c

Toast's Utility (http://www.toast442.org/md5/) should do the trick (there are others). Set the rado button to generate checksum and drag the ISO onto the GUI. Wait for it to calculate and the value should be IDENTICAL to the checksum of your downoaded version. Seeing that both Knoppix and Ubuntu have problems with the on-board makes it less likely to be a bad download. MD5's for big downloads are always worth it in the long run.

You can mess with trying to get the onboard LAN to work with Linux through the Ubuntu Forums or whatever but getting a new card was suggested as being possibly the quickest painless way to get things functional seeing that others have had problems with the same model of PC. That's up to you of course.

[Luffypsp]

i just checked my cpu box when i first get my pc,it stated that the original OS was Linux but i got it on xp as the OS.so i guess there must be a way to get it working...

btw wait i'll try the toast utility...

[Luffypsp]

ok i just run that toast utility and the checksum match..so??

[mjc]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=522139

That link to the Ubuntu forums shows how to get that NIC working...yes, it seems to be a problematic one for the Linux. You will need to have the Windows drivers available so you can use the ndiswrapper to get it working, as there doesn't seem to be a trustworthy (as in works all the time) native Linux driver for that card.

[Luffypsp]

well the link looks convincing but i'm still cant access the livecd...WTF with the input not supported????

now not that i cant access internet,i cant even go to linux....HELP!!!!!!!!!

[Rick]

Start by powering everything down
Completely
Including unplugging it from the power outlet
Then press the power button to flush the system of all power . ( in power supply and capacitors)
Make sure your mouse and keyboard are securely connected ( plugged in completely )

Then reconnect to power and boot up with the livecd in the drive and ready to boot..

[Luffypsp]

ok wait for awhile i'll try it....

[Luffypsp]

ok thnxs to you i got it to boot again...i missed the desktop,glad i could see it again.btw i cant get the internet to work yet..

ok here's the guide that guy posted

If you are having problems and want to try, here is the info for using ndiswrapper:

First, there are a couple of packages you must have installed, so click on System, then on Administration and then on Synaptic Package Manager. Click the search button, type ndiswrapper in the search string and click find. Be sure both ndiswrapper-common and the ndiswrapper-utils-xxxxx (don't know what yours will say there) have green boxes. If not, click the box and click on "Mark for installation". Now on the left side of the screen click on "All". Click the search button, type network-manager and click find. If network-manager and network-manager-gnome are not green boxed, click on each box and select "Mark for installation". Now, if you had to mark any of the above for installation, click "apply" and wait for the software to install. Now close out of sysnaptics package manager.[[[DONE]]]

Next, download the file I have attached here and then extract it to your desktop, It will create a folder on your desktop called "sislan".[[[DONE]]]

Now, open a terminal window and type:

ndiswrapper -l <-- lower case "L", for "list"[[[Still OK]]]

if anything shows as output:

sudo ndiswrapper -r xxxx where xxxx is the name of one of the things that shows in the list

repeat the ndiswrapper -l and the sudo ndiswrapper -r xxxx for each thing that shows in the list until no output is returned.


Type:

sudo ndiswrapper -i ~/Desktop/sislan/SiSGbe.inf -- be sure to match the case (you can just copy and paster the command from here if you want to.[[[DONE]]]

sudo depmod -a
sudo modprobe ndiswrapper
sudo ndiswrapper -m

Now just restart your PC. When the PC boots back up, click on the network-manager icon on your top bar and see if the wireless networks are shown. If so, try clicking on one to see if you can connect. Remember that if you use WEP or WPA you will need to specify that and the key in the connection box.[[[I'm not Using Wireless You Guys Remember That right??]]]

i understand all of them except the one that i underline.

[Luffypsp]

and here is some command i tried

ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ sudo pppoeconf
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found
/usr/sbin/pppoeconf: 520: modconf: not found


ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ ifconfig
lo Link encap:Local Loopback
inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0
inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host
UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:16436 Metric:1
RX packets:112 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
TX packets:112 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
collisions:0 txqueuelen:0
RX bytes:8176 (7.9 KB) TX bytes:8176 (7.9 KB)


ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ Ispci
bash: Ispci: command not found

[Paul Komski]

The fault apparently lies in the ISA Bridge http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=482284 so you have another approach if you cant get ndiswrapper to function as you want.

[mjc]

OK...

The last one is the easy one.

That should be a lowercase 'L' not an 'I'... lspci (as in 'list pci devices')

The chipset for the network card can do both wired/wireless. The procedure to install the card is basically the same, except for the wired connection you don't need to set up security...which is what the last part of the guide is about.

[Rick]

I just downloaded and ran Ubuntu 7.10

Directly from their site

It won't allow the user to do much of anything ( aside from limited aps)
Unless you install it.

It didn't even show an ADMIN section on the menu

This will explain a lot of why Luffypsp is having so many problems and at times can't follow what we are telling him

Anyone know what the download CD version Default root password is ?
If not it's a waste of time for me to even keep the disk

[mjc]

Umm...no, I've got the disk sitting here and haven't even tried it.

Yeah, I guess we are barking up the wrong tree if the dang thing is so 'idiot proof' that only a 3 yr old can run it...sheesh.

[Luffypsp]

so guys i need to install it right to my HDD??what if its still not working??can i just leave it like that until i got the compatible hardware??

[Paul Komski]

It won't allow the user to do much of anything ( aside from limited aps)
Unless you install it.

It didn't even show an ADMIN section on the menu

This will explain a lot of why Luffypsp is having so many problems and at times can't follow what we are telling him

Anyone know what the download CD version Default root password is ?
If not it's a waste of time for me to even keep the disk
System Menu >> Adminstration on my Distro.

Just sudo for admin rights - no password needed from the CD.

The bigger problem with no internet access is often that packages cant be downloaded. In such a situation one is better to use the alternate installation CD.

[Luffypsp]

what is that??the alternate installation cd??

so what do you recommend??

btw i was successfully installed the ndiswrapper packages...

[jlreich]

Anyone know what the download CD version Default root password is ?
If not it's a waste of time for me to even keep the disk
Ubuntu doesn't have a root password. I think you just use "sudo" and then the commands you want to run. If you have a user pw enter it after the commands.

sudo <commands> pw

I haven't used the live cd for a long time, and my Ubuntu box is sitting in parts in the basement about to go to my brother, but I think that is how you do it.

There is a lot of documentation on it in the Ubuntu FAQ's if you are interested.

EDIT - Paul cleared that up. :)

[Luffypsp]

does mandriva use GNOME desktop??i'm downloading it right now,is it good??but it doesnt matter though because i cant go the internet.:(

[Paul Komski]

The Ubuntu Alternate CD uses the text installer instead of the GUI installer. It needs less system memory and permits advanced installs with pre-seeded options as well as LVM or RAID disk configurations.

It is not a Live CD and is more like a Debian installation.

You check the box on this download page. (http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download)

[Rick]

does mandriva use GNOME desktop??i'm downloading it right now,is it good??but it doesnt matter though because i cant go the internet.:(


Once installed you can add any interface you want
and Yes Gnome is one of them on the CD

BUT..

Try to get it working off the Livecd first

When I installed it and then ran update
it took 179 updates to get everything up to date


if you still have No internet with the Live cd
Then you will have to wait on the updates.


I'm not sure if the livecd will allow you to use Gnome instead of KDE

[Rick]

Ubuntu doesn't have a root password. I think you just use "sudo" and then the commands you want to run. If you have a user pw enter it after the commands.

sudo <commands> pw

Thats ends my plan to even attempt to install it then.
Nvidia drivers won't install unless done by the log-in root

Yes I did try to install them in Mandriva with the same results
Error MUST BE LOGGED IN AS ROOT

make matters even worse
it won't allow me to use the installed Nvidia setup
Because a user can NOT delete or create files in etc/x11

I will have to go back to mandrake 9.1 :)

[Paul Komski]

Because a user can NOT delete or create files in etc/x11
If you are talking about Ubuntu

# sudo gedit /etc/X11/test.file
creates the file
# sudo rm /etc/X11/test.file
deletes the created file

If done from the installed version and not the CD you will have to provide your own user password. The default user and other users must belong to the appropriate group. If you really want to, once installed, you can provide root with a password. It is also possible to install a root terminal. If you regularly want to open a text editor as root then you can make a shortcut to do this for you.

Installing Nvidia Drivers in Gutsy (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Gutsy#NVidia_Driver)

[Luffypsp]

tnxs,and i got my livecd from that link....

so guys,if i install ubuntu to my HDD will it work??the net i mean....

[mjc]

tnxs,and i got my livecd from that link....

so guys,if i install ubuntu to my HDD will it work??the net i mean....

Probably not right off the bat...but it would probably be much easier to set it up after install.

[Rick]

tnxs,and i got my livecd from that link....

so guys,if i install ubuntu to my HDD will it work??the net i mean....


If it doesn't work from the Livecd
Then it will NOT work after the full install

The NIS drivers and or device is not directly supported

Ubuntu will run much better
But until you get the nic drivers and or replace the device with a new one.
You will not have Internet access


One way around this
Download Everything you need to get that card/device working using windows
Save it to a folder you have access to using both windows and later linux
One of your drives and folders you can reach using the linux Storage Media Icon on your desktop


after you have everything saved and reboot
Start linux and Copy it to a Linux folder
/home/user name/Download
for example

Then run the Needed commands ..

it does work.
I just finished doing this with the Nvidia drivers and HP network printer drivers that I was unable to install before :p

[Rick]

Warning

Before you install Ubuntu or what ever distro you decide on

Do a search for a MBR backup program
Download and use it

It will make life a lot easier IF/When you decide to remove linux
"specificly remove grub or lilo " the boot loader used by linux

The default boot loader for Ubuntu is Grub


Here is a link to the subject on Ubuntu
http://ubuntu.wordpress.com/2005/10/20/backing-up-the-mbr/

[Luffypsp]

You said Download everything??whats the THING i need to download??

so there is way for me to get it to work without replacing the hardware??

[Rick]

You said Download everything??whats the THING i need to download??

so there is way for me to get it to work without replacing the hardware??

Go back one page (page3) on this thread and see what
If anything they suggest to get that NIC working requires you to download and install items

Download them and reboot to linux and copy to the Linux download folder

OR go to the machines manufacturer web site and find the linux drivers there for the Nic


Go here
http://global.acer.com/support/download.htm

It shows it supports Linux 9.2 or came with it

That being said
I think I would get a new NIC for that unit
They cost very little and you can get one that meets Windows and Linux standards
( Meaning all most any NIC that isn't a proprietary device like you have now)

[Paul Komski]

One possibility of new hardware (without having to open the box) would be this USB to RJ45 adapter (http://www.amazon.com/Trendnet-TUET100C-100Mbps-Ethernet-Adapter/dp/B0000CDZ82). Linux isn't listed in the specs but one poster wrote the following:-

This is a great USB ethernet adapter, it installs automatically on Windows XP, needed no additional configuration, unless you use a static IP address.

What made this adapter great was its Linux compatibility, I wasn't expecting much as Trendnet doesn't list linux drivers on their support site. But, it worked out of the box with Ubuntu Linux (Feisty 7.04). Again, all I needed to do was setup the static IP and restart the OS and it worked :) Couldn't ask for more.

[Rick]

Never mind.. That site is worthless.. (http://global.acer.com/support/download.htm )
Won't even reload the page for me
Plus 9.2 is outdated

[Luffypsp]

yeah i just try that site,it doesnt load the page.btw i think its the ISA problem,i'll post the lspci later.i asked in the ubuntu forums and they gave me the link on how to create drivers for Sis191 Gigabyte ethernet.its here - http://www.howtoforge.com/creating-the-sis191-gigabit-ethernet-driver-on-linux-2.6

[Luffypsp]

ok guys here's my lspci...

ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 671MX
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] PCI-to-PCI bridge
00:02.0 ISA bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS968 [MuTIOL Media IO] (rev 01)
00:02.5 IDE interface: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 5513 [IDE] (rev 01)
00:03.0 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller (rev 0f)
00:03.1 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller (rev 0f)
00:03.3 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 2.0 Controller
00:04.0 Ethernet controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 191 Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (rev 02)
00:05.0 IDE interface: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SATA Controller / IDE mode (rev 03)
00:06.0 PCI bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] PCI-to-PCI bridge
00:0c.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments TSB43AB23 IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link)
00:0f.0 Audio device: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] Azalia Audio Controller
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc Unknown device 94c3
01:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc Unknown device aa10

and the lspci -nn

ubuntu@ubuntu:~$ lspci -nn
00:00.0 Host bridge [0600]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 671MX [1039:0671]
00:01.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] PCI-to-PCI bridge [1039:0004]
00:02.0 ISA bridge [0601]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS968 [MuTIOL Media IO] [1039:0968] (rev 01)
00:02.5 IDE interface [0101]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 5513 [IDE] [1039:5513] (rev 01)
00:03.0 USB Controller [0c03]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller [1039:7001] (rev 0f)
00:03.1 USB Controller [0c03]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller [1039:7001] (rev 0f)
00:03.3 USB Controller [0c03]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 2.0 Controller [1039:7002]
00:04.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 191 Gigabit Ethernet Adapter [1039:0191] (rev 02)
00:05.0 IDE interface [0101]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SATA Controller / IDE mode [1039:1183] (rev 03)
00:06.0 PCI bridge [0604]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] PCI-to-PCI bridge [1039:000a]
00:0c.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394) [0c00]: Texas Instruments TSB43AB23 IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link) [104c:8024]
00:0f.0 Audio device [0403]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] Azalia Audio Controller [1039:7502]
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: ATI Technologies Inc Unknown device [1002:94c3]
01:00.1 Audio device [0403]: ATI Technologies Inc Unknown device [1002:aa10]

[Rick]

From what I read in your link above

This is the info you need to add/edit/enter into his script
the 968

00:02.0 ISA bridge [0601]: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS968 [MuTIOL Media IO] [1039:0968] (rev 01)






Now change the line

isa_bridge = pci_find_device(0x1039, 0x0965, isa_bridge);

to

isa_bridge = pci_find_device(0x1039, 0x0968, isa_bridge);

Or whatever ID you actually have (mine is 0x0968, remember).

from http://www.howtoforge.com/creating-the-sis191-gigabit-ethernet-driver-on-linux-2.6

[Luffypsp]

but i dont get this part

uname -r

). Once uncompressed with

tar -xvzf [file.tar.gz]

edit the driver' source file in '[kernel_src_folder]/drivers/net/sis190.c'. At line 1576 you'll find this section:

* sis190_get_mac_addr_from_apc - Get MAC address for SiS965 model
* @pci_dev: the sis190 pci device
* @net_dev: the net device to get address for
*
* SiS965 model, use APC CMOS RAM to store MAC address.
* APC CMOS RAM is accessed through ISA bridge.
* MAC address is read into @net_dev->dev_addr.
*/
static int __devinit sis190_get_mac_addr_from_apc(struct pci_dev * pci_dev, struct net_device *net_dev)
{
struct pci_dev *isa_bridge = NULL;
struct sis190_private * sis_priv = net_dev->priv;
u8 reg, temp;
int i;

printk(KERN_INFO "%s: Read MAC address from APC\n", net_dev->name);

isa_bridge = pci_find_device(0x1039, 0x0965, isa_bridge);
if (!isa_bridge) {
printk("%s: Can not find ISA bridge\n", net_dev->name);
return 0;

how to do all the quoted part??

[Rick]

but i dont get this part



how to do all the quoted part??

Read Just above that part in the page where it tells you to go to another site and download the (filename).tar.gz

A tar.gz file is the Linux version of a zip/compressed file

You need to follow that guide he has step for step and word for word



The Solution

We must change the ISA bridge ID from the vanilla driver, from 0x965 to 0x968, or whatever ID you have (see output from lspci)

Ignore the sis191 official driver download. It is completely out-of date (see www.sis.com/download, then Download Center > Network Driver : SiS191 Gigabit & SiS190 LAN : Linux)

Instead, go to www.kernel.org and grab the .tar.gz file for your current kernel version (see)

uname -r

Once uncompressed with

tar -xvzf [file.tar.gz]

[Luffypsp]

ok how to know my kernel??i tried typing uname - r but nothing came out....

[Luffypsp]

btw can you explain Instead, go to www.kernel.org and grab the .tar.gz file for your current kernel version (see

uname -r

). Once uncompressed with

tar -xvzf [file.tar.gz]

edit the driver' source file in '[kernel_src_folder]/drivers/net/sis190.c'. At line 1576 you'll find this section:

just this one,especially the "once uncompress" thing...

[Luffypsp]

forgot to ask this one,if this is a success will my internet on vista be affected??

[Rick]

TAR is about the same as unzip ( command line used in a command "CMD" window)
the "-xvzf" are switches for the program to follow
and "file.tar.gz" is the file you need to download and replace the SiS190 LAN vanilla driver / file with in
/drivers/net/sis190.c

SIS190.c may not be a single file but included in the chipset / driver file

[Rick]

forgot to ask this one,if this is a success will my internet on vista be affected??


As long as you don't allow any of the files to be saved into a Vista/windows system folder
it will have NO affect what so ever on Vista


Create a folder to save and store all this stuff in
Away from c:\windows\ what ever


Try a good name for the new folder like
c:\Linuxstuff

Then save everything for linux in there

Later Before doing anything with it.
Copy it to a download folder in the linux partition

[Luffypsp]

man i tried the link given in the link i gave you.i/ve download all the files there but i cant find a single file called file.tar.gz....and i dont even know my kernel to know which one i have to download....

[Rick]

file.tar.gz
Is NOT the exact file name
it is /was an abbreviation for "filename.tar.gz"


The exact file name is "sis190191_linux.tar.gz"

The one on the SIS site is in fact OUTDATED ( 2005-07-11 )

So you need to find a newer version of it


That being said and found
What It is now saying is
they want you to download the source code for the kernel and edit the file for SIS190.c and then compile a new kernel


Here is a detailed thread from another forum
http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=5930&forum=29


All this is a good deal of work and adds to the learning curve of linux

Here is yet another

http://gka-linux.blogspot.com/2005/11/sis-ethernet-0190-sis190-patch-try-1.html

At this Point I think it's time to find the orignal linux distro with support for that card
OR
spend $3.99 to $??.00 for a New NIC

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=27&name=Network-Interface-Cards


Yes even the $3.99 listed Unix
BUT make sure you check the specification and find LINUX listed and the correct version
So start at about $7.99 and work UP from there

[Luffypsp]

i got the kernel version of 2.6.24.3,but the compressed file says .bz2 and when i uncompress i get a 3 File type.heres the link - http://www.kernel.org/ ,try download it and tell me if i'm downloading the wrong thing.

[Rick]

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/

here is a link to the complete public releases of the source code
The file you downloaded is just a patch for the complete code I think

Remember you need to edit these with the correct program and NOT a word processor

The 2.6.24.3 version is 56 Meg ( linux-2.6.24.3.tar.gz) and contains a TAR file
linux-2.6.24.3.tar
That compressed file contains EVERYTHING for a new kernel 23,041 files and folders

sis190.c
is in the sub folder below
linux-2.6.24.3/drivers/net

[Luffypsp]

thats a lot of list man,which one do i choose??and what program i need to edit those??

[Rick]

thats a lot of list man,which one do i choose??and what program i need to edit those??


The newest file By date and the correct version is the one you want.

The program you use will be determined by what is on the livecd
I'm not sure what is supplied on your disk

I have to go back to work now :(
With luck I will be able to get back online again later this week.
but don't count on it.
hotel wifi is unreliable

[Luffypsp]

oo i see so its on the cd...so have a good day at work,i'll report back if i have any problems.thnxs....

[Luffypsp]

GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Guess What,i Give Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Ubuntu is not working so i gave up on it.

I'm replying this with Mandriva LiveCD,it was automatically connected when i boot it and i'm very happy.btw it says "Network is Up on Interface Eth0",so is it ok??but i dont know how to dual boot it,is it the same as the guide i found for ubuntu??and here its KDE desktop,can i get the GNOME one??

[Rick]

In Linux your hardware is listed in binary
0-n so the first device in any type starts with 0 and goes up from there
If you have a wireless card in that system it will be Eth1
This is normal

When you use the Install on the desk top
it will install the bootloader and set it up for you to dual boot

You have a number of options (5) and Yes Gnome is one of them

One suggestion .
Once installed
Go to the update section and pick the update site close to you
I Use UW and UI ( University of Wisconsin and Indiana )
Then allow it to update everything 179 updates

Then you can do almost any software addition or change with a lot less hassle
On a cable modem it takes less than an hour from start to finish

[Luffypsp]

do i still need the MBR backup thing??

btw can you explain again about thr GRUB and MBR thing??this time a lot more simpler and easier,it is the hardest one that i'm trying to understand after reading so much about it.and tell step by step on how to do it,what it do and when do i use it....

thnxs....

P.S since the internet was auto connected on the liveCD,when i install into the HD will it still be like that??

EDIT : and thnxs for the suggestions...

[Paul Komski]

P.S since the internet was auto connected on the liveCD,when i install into the HD will it still be like that??It should be. With a wired connection it is, in any case, most unusual to not have direct communication.

do i still need the MBR backup thing??
It is actually always worth having a backup of the MBR and with Vista as the other OS or on any Dell PC there can be compelling reasons for doing so. I'm not familiar with Mandriva but using a Knoppix CD there is a description of how to do this using the dd utility about half-way down the page from the KnoppixBackup link (in my sig). Using a floppy or a pen drive to store the 512 byte file is recommended because if you need to restore it to the hard drive it should be particularly easy to find and mount the file system. You can modify this for Mandriva or Ubuntu no doubt or look for a disk editor that will run under Vista. If you have a DOS boot floppy then you can add MBRWork (http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads-free-software.htm)(not MBR Utility) to it and do everything from that floppy. Such a floppy is also the easiest way to reinstate the original from.

btw can you explain again about thr GRUB and MBR thingUnlike Windows, Linux needs a specialist boot sector containing GRUB (or LILO on some distros) to initiate its boot process. This can be in a number of locations; the MBR (the usual default), a floppy diskette, or a hard drive partition (which can be primary or logical). The most straightforward is the MBR (or a floppy diskette for that manner). If a hard drive partition is used one needs to install a 3rd Party Boot Manager to the MBR to choose between Vista and Linux or whatever.

You need to watch out and ensure you can customize the setup to install to other than the MBR if that is what is wanted. If you let GRUB/LILO install to the MBR then the installation should automatically create a multiboot menu giving you the choice to boot Linux or Windows. Since this overwrites the MBR with new code then that is why a backup is a good idea if you need to go back in time some time in the future.

[Luffypsp]

ooo ok i understand a bit,so what do i need to do before i make the partition for linux??i've backup all the files in the c drive,but not in d rive as i wanted to shrink the partition in c drive...what else other than that??

one thing,like you said,the multiboot menu,thats what i always imagine on dual booting.when i first boot my pc there will be an option to choose between those two.how do i do that??dont go mad at me,if you've answered my question,as i said i understand a bit...for now...well yeah you know a pc noobz...

[Paul Komski]

I woulnt make any partitions for Linux; just leave adequate unallocated space. It will then partition this for its own purposes.

If you follow the defaults it will install GRUB/LILO to the MBR and setup a multiboot menu.

The only problem with this is if you remove Linux at some later time you are going to need to restore the original MBR to regain bootablilty to Vista.

[Luffypsp]

I woulnt make any partitions for Linux; just leave adequate unallocated space. It will then partition this for its own purposes.
i want it to be installed to my HD so thats why i'm making a partition for linux.or am i misundestanding about something??and yeah i need to make the unallocated space to install linux...

so how do i avoid the problem as you said??
The only problem with this is if you remove Linux at some later time you are going to need to restore the original MBR to regain bootablilty to Vista.

so i can just install it by defaults to get the multiboot option??

If you follow the defaults it will install GRUB/LILO to the MBR and setup a multiboot menu.

[Paul Komski]

i want it to be installed to my HD so thats why i'm making a partition for linux.or am i misundestanding about something??and yeah i need to make the unallocated space to install linux...Most linux distros that I have installed will want to modify the existing drive geometry or repartition to suit the distro's own methods. You can just install to the hard drive and let Linux do everything. Resize partitions, repartition, format as necessary. That can be confusing when you are, usually, asked to confirm the partitioning and formatting that it decides are "best". As long as there is adequate unallocated space then the distro will just use this and not alter other existing partitons - that gives you more control and the least disruption but it is not mandatory.

If it is important to be able to regain full normal access to your current Vista installation then having a way of reinstating the current MBR is wise (but again not mandatory since the boot processes can be repaired if you have a Vista installation DVD) or avoid writing to it all by ensuring that the Linux boot loader is installed to a floppy diskette. You then would need to insert the floppy to boot to Linux and leave it out to boot to Vista. If your data is backed up and you don't mind doing a clean reinstallation of Vista at some later stage then it doesn't really matter how you proceed. I think, some time back, I suggested using a separate HDD and if you want to really keep Vista and Linux well separated this is still a good idea - but may be impractical or too expensive an option for you.

so i can just install it by defaults to get the multiboot option??Yes - absolutely. You can just install, let it rip and follow the prompts. There should be a point at which you commit or back-out if unsure or unhappy. Going forward is easy. Getting back can be hard when things go astray and is which is why we have tried to point out some of the potential problems.

[Luffypsp]

the backup with knoppix on your link,do i need to follow all the steps??does it same for mandriva/ubuntu??

P.S i dont have the place to insert a floppy diskette on my cpu....

EDIT : i've google somewhere and found that someone cant boot into his linux after installing windows or vice versa.so is there any step on how to prevent that??

i want to dual boot and i want the choice to choose between vista or linux when i turn on my pc,how to do that??

[Paul Komski]

If you install, reinstall, repair windows over GRUB/LILO on the MBR then a new (windows default) area of the MBR can get overwritten. There are some differences with different versions of Windows (if I remember correctly) and it may depend on certain other parallel actions such as whether one chooses to delete or recreate any partitions. The point is that it is possible to overwrite the bootstrap code (though not the partition tables) by installing Windows over Linux and vice versa.

An alternative is to use a third party boot manager but that will involve another learning curve and you must also have a small (say 100MB) PRIMARY FAT partition available somewhere. Even such boot managers, because they have their own code on the MBR, can get overwritten but with some it is quite straightforward to renew the information when that happens. With BiNG this is because it not only writes information to some files on the chosen FAT partition but it also writes code to the EMBR (the next 62 sectors after the MBR). The first 63 sectors (Sector 0 through 62) are also known as the first Track (Track0) of the HDD's geometry.

Using a third party boot manager (BiNG, XOSL, GAG, BootMagic, etc) is in the long run a more elegant way and gives one the versatility of adding or editing such options later. With respect to Linux it is absolutely mandatory that during the installation you must define a partition (and not the MBR) onto which GRUB/LILO must be installed. How and when during the install varies with each distro. When one does this one will not be able to boot the new installation until you install or edit the boot manager to point to the installed operating system(s) on the PC. BiNG, if installed after both Vista and Linux have been installed should find and set-up the initial boot selection menu for you for both of them. BiNG, installed on your hard drive, can also be entered in Maintenance Mode at every boot up to allow you to do just about any partitioning and imaging tasks.

Should you decide to try BiNG (it can be uninstalled and another manager installed in its place) then I suggest you make the bootable CD and when installing don't agree to the option to be able to create more than the normal 4 primary partitions.

You can backup the MBR using dd with any Linux distro but there will differences in a number of areas. One is that the device name for the HDD may vary. Another is that the location for the output file may need to not only be correctly identified but also mounted to be writable. (With Knoppix a floppy or a USB pen drive would both be automatically mounted and writable and using fdisk -l as described should help delineate/describe all the partitions on the system).

I have only just come across MBRWizard (http://www.mbrwizard.com/) and it might be a more user friendly way to go - even though it too needs to be run from a command line. In Windows the line could be:-
mbrwiz /Disk=0 /Save=mbr.dat
to save in the same folder or
mbrwiz /Disk=0 /Save=X:\myfolder\mbr.dat
to save in a specified folder.
I suggest saving either to a floppy or to a thumb drive because of the perennial problem when backing-up (which is the most straightforward part) of being able, later on, to easily do the actual restoration. MBRWizard has the advantage of being capable of being run from a number of platforms. Just enter mbrwiz on its own to see all its options.

[Luffypsp]

ooo ok so i should do like this....

1)make an unallocated space to install linux on my HDD taken from my c drive.
2)make a backup of the MBR using MBR Wizard and save it to a thumb drive.
3)boot into mandriva linux.
4)install it...

Like that??so i'll have the multiboot options??

[Rick]

Yes in that order

[Luffypsp]

aight,thnxs....

[Paul Komski]

Just a note on MBRWizard and Vista. There is a variety of information and examples on the website but Vista is not specifically supported. I downloaded the XP/PE/2003 2.0 beta version, unzipped it and copied the exe to the root of the C: drive.

Opened a console as Administrator. From Start > All Programs > Accessories and then RightClicked on Command Prompt and chose Run as administrator. Then entered
cd ..
a couple of times to get to the C: prompt. Then entered mbrwiz at the C: prompt to get a list of the options and to continue with using it.

I can only say that
C:\>mbrwiz /List
displayed the information nicely and that
C:\>mbrwiz /Disk=0 /Save=mbr.dat
did then create the backup file in the C: drive

So it seems to work quite nicely from Vista but does need to be run with admin privileges.

I can see that this utility has a wide range of other useful functions and is a new toy for me to play with!

PS
The output of the list to a text file worked just as in previous versions of Windows. Thus
C:\>mbr /List > mbr.txt
produced a nice text file of the output - also in the C: drive (which is where the exe was placed at the start).

It's very similar output to that of PQ's PartInfo

MBRWiz - Version 2.0 **beta** for Windows XP/2K3/PE April 30, 2006
Copyright (c) 2002-2006 Roger Layton http://mbr.bigr.net

Disk: 0 Size: 114G CHS: 14593 255 63
Pos MBRndx Type/Name Size Active Hide Start Sector Sectors DL Vol Label
--- ------ ---------- ---- ------ ---- ------------ ------------ -- ----------
0 0 07-NTFS 67G Yes No 2,048 136,376,320 C: <None>

Disk: 1 Size: 153G CHS: 19457 255 63
Pos MBRndx Type/Name Size Active Hide Start Sector Sectors DL Vol Label
--- ------ ---------- ---- ------ ---- ------------ ------------ -- ----------
0 0 83-Linux 38G No No 63 78,124,032 8: <None>
1 1 82-LxSwap 486M No No 78,124,095 996,030 -- <None>
2 2 0B-FAT32 10G No No 79,120,125 20,482,875 D: <None>
3 3 05-EXTEND 8.0G No No 99,603,000 16,386,300 -- <None>

[Luffypsp]

so your point??sorry i didnt understand much...maybe its a MBR backup method??

btw i found this link - http://neosmart.net/blog/2006/easybcd-15-multidual-boot-vista-linux-mac-os-x-bsd/

what is it anyway??i also didnt really understand what the program does...

[Luffypsp]

btw,after i shrinked the c drive partition do i need to format the unallocated space first or i can just go straight installing linux without touching it??

EDIT : forgotten bout something,i saw in AVG site,there is a free edition of antivirus for linux??do i need it??as far as i know linux didnt require any antivirus,antispyware or any security software.is it true??

EDIT 2 : and what are the torrent programs to download torrents for linux??

EDIT3 : and can i install megamanager on linux??i heard its for windows only...so is there any upload and download manager that can support megaupload??

[Paul Komski]

maybe its a MBR backup methodYes - I thought that was obvious but it seems not. Having only recently discovered MBRWizard and since it doesn't explicity support Vista I tried it in Vista and got it to work. I then posted the results of how I got it to work because you need admin privileges to run the console in Vista. I also found some additional features which I also included.

Your link to EasyBCD is a link to a program that says it can help you use the Vista boot processes to chainload a Linux distro. It looks relatively straightforward if (a) Vista is installed first (as in your case), (b) As with 3rd Party Boot Managers you ensure that GRUB/LILO is installed to a partition and not to the MBR when you install your Linux distro and (c) You then boot to Vista normally, install EasyBCD and configure it to create a multiboot menu that includes the Linux distribution you have just installed.

[Luffypsp]

ooo ok so do you recommend me to use EasyBCD??after i do the MBR backup i mean??

btw,so i can run the console as long as i open it as administator using the MBRWizard??is that what you mean??

[Paul Komski]

I'm not recommending EasyBCD since I've never used it. You mentioned it and I've tried to explain it. I'm not not-recommeding it either.

You can always open a console but running an executable from with the console requires admin status and the way to do that is to use the right click menu as described.

[Luffypsp]

ooo ok thnxs...i'll let you know if i have any problems...thnxs again....

[Luffypsp]

btw,after i shrinked the c drive partition do i need to format the unallocated space first or i can just go straight installing linux without touching it??

EDIT : forgotten bout something,i saw in AVG site,there is a free edition of antivirus for linux??do i need it??as far as i know linux didnt require any antivirus,antispyware or any security software.is it true??

EDIT 2 : and what are the torrent programs to download torrents for linux??

EDIT3 : and can i install megamanager on linux??i heard its for windows only...so is there any upload and download manager that can support megaupload??

hmmm anyone can answer this??

[Paul Komski]

As things stand, and particularly behind a NAT router, I don't bother with either an antivirus or a software firewall in Linux. But then I believe I use pretty good security principles and have good (and automated) backup routines not only for my operating systems but also for any mission critical or other valuable data. The one thing Linux wont give you (unfortunately) is any protection from SPAM.

Torrents are like a co-op of file-sharing but just for a specified file. When you are downloading you are downloading from a number of other downloaders and as your own file download progresses more of it becomes available for others to upload from you. The process being controlled by a central server. They save distributors of files from having to provide storage and bandwidth and are an efficient way of downloading large files and can be paused and restarted. They start and end a bit on the slow side but get really fast in the middle.

There is a Firefox extension for Megaupload (http://www.mydigitallife.info/2007/05/06/use-firefox-extension-megaupload-sx32-to-get-megaupload-and-sexuploader-megarotic-free-download-slots/) but don't know if it functions under Linux.

EDIT
Didn't even see the first part. "btw,after i shrinked the c drive partition do i need to format the unallocated space first or i can just go straight installing linux without touching it??"
No - Linux will do all the partitioning and formatting required.

[Luffypsp]

aight thnxs again mate...

[Paul Komski]

Should have stressed one important security tip and that is to not log-on as root - except for exceptional reasons. If you need root/super-user/su access then do it piecemeal using su or sudo from a console.

[Luffypsp]

what is root??

[mjc]

root=Administrator

[Luffypsp]

root=Administrator
ooo i see...well you know...noobz...

guys i tried the MBRWizard but it says mbrwiz didnt recognize internal/external or something like that....is the MBR Wizard should be done in linux??once installed in Hd??

can i just install linux without making any backup??i'm not planning on removing either vista or linux in any day.....

[Paul Komski]

Where did you try mbrwiz from - Vista ? - and if so had you opened the console with admin rights?

If you install to the MBR then there is little point in backing up the MBR beforehand.

You can install Linux without a backed-up MBR but don't blame us later if you have problems wanting to do anything that would benefit from being able to restore such a backup. It is unlikely to be catastrophic but could be a nuisance say trying to get Vista going again and possibly needing either repairs from the installation CD or a clean reinstallation.

The main advice is to ALWAYS have important personal data backed-up. Operating Systems can be reinstalled but lost data may be lost forever.

[Luffypsp]

yeah i already tried the admin rights but no good...its says mbrwiz is not recognised as an internal or external command, operable program, or batch file.

so any other way to backup the MBR??

[Luffypsp]

ok done i got it to work.it says the .....was successfully saved to mbr.dat , its 512 bytes and a video file format....

i saved it to the same folder,to d drive , CD and a usb drive....so thats it??did i already backed up my mbr??am i safe already??

[Paul Komski]

If you have it somewhere accessible then there are a number of ways of restoring it in the future. It may appear to be a video file fomat but that must be what your own .dat file extension defaults to. You can change the file extension or even remove it altogether and it won't stop being an MBR backup file.

Good luck.

[Luffypsp]

i can ask on how to restore it later right??coz i'm preparing and excited on installing linux....knowing on how to restore can wait as long as i have the MBR backup already right??

[Paul Komski]

Yep .

[Luffypsp]

aight thnxs again mate....

[Luffypsp]

Guys just wanted you know i didnt started any process on dual booting yet as i'm 'forced' to attend something like boot camp by my country and i'm gonna be out for 3 month...and i'm leaving about 17 hours from time i posted this.i've only finished backing up my stuffs and planning to make the unallocated space before i go(if i have the time though)...so i'm gonna get my linux installed after 3 month...well i'm telling this incase you guys will think i'm leaving with success and no thnxs...

btw thnxs guys again for the help....Especially to Rick and Paul Komski for the very lots of help and info....i'll be back with my success on installing it(hopefully)...

P.S i hate the rules....Sucks Big Time...having to leave my PC, PSP and Xbox360...

[Paul Komski]

Hope to hear from you by the summer then.

[Luffypsp]

hopefully....btw later guys....i'm gonna be busy packing up my stuffs tonight....

[Luffypsp]

helo guys,hmmm i still didnt install the linux as i'm downloading the ubuntu 8.04 to try if my internet working with it or not but i want to ask something, well i'm using vista ultimate sp1 now,does it got any problems with dual booting??look here if you want to know what i mean - http://apcmag.com/vista_sp1_wont_install_on_dualboot_systems_microso ft.htm

[jlreich]

From the article it looks like it will only be a problem if you use the BitLocker drive encryption built into vista.

If you don't use BitLocker you won't need to worry about it.

Good info to know though. :)

[Luffypsp]

how to know that i'm using bitlocker or not??hmmm and i'm thinking on reformating my pc.i need to confirm this one,do i install vista ultimate sp1 first on 1st partition(110 GB) n 2nd partition as for the entertainment or others(100GB) n lastly for the unpartitioned space is for linux??like that??

n what if i want to install other linux other than ubuntu??like mandriva or somthing,is it same?? because i found this guide - http://apcmag.com/how_to_dualboot_vista_with_linux_vista_installed_f irst.htm

[jlreich]

You would know if you are using encryption because you have to choose to use it. On the same note you will not be able to use BitLocker in the future. Something to keep in mind.

Install vista first. That way when you install Linux it will deal with booting both OS's. It doesn't really matter what partition it is on although the first one makes it easier to know where it is and such. But you can partition your drive however you like within the bounds of up to 4 primary partitions, or 3 primary and 1 extended. And Linux will make and put itself on an extended partition, so that will leave you with up to 3 primary partitions for vista and data.

Which flavor of Linux you use doesn't really make much difference either. Any of the major distros shouldn't have any issue with booting vista.

[Luffypsp]

ok thnxs man for the help,i'll let you know how it goes...gotta backup my files first...