How are DOS and Win9x related??

[Beno]

Hey Gang,

I know that I have recently posted a message about something similiar, but this is kinda bugging me because I still don't feel as though I have a firm grasp on it yet so here goes!............

What I want to know is "Does Win9x systems run on top of does?? and if so why?? why can't win9x be an op.sys that is fully self contained and that doesn't have to rely on the old DOS op.sys??

When Win9x boots up, does this mean that Win9x has a kernel and the underlying op.sys (being DOS) have a kernel as well, so there is in effect a kernel runnning on top of a kernel??

How does Win9x use DOS in its day to day operation (this is an important question to me!!)???????? I know that the core files of DOS are io.sys, msdos.sys and command.com, but what are the core files for Win9x and how do they relate to the core files of DOS??

I know I am being very probing here, so I don't expect any of you guru's to answer everything, although it would be nice. However if you guys know any cool websites which would be able to relay this information across to me, then that would be a big help in my preparation for my A+ studies on op.sys's.

Thankyou to you all you can help

Beno

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Have a nice day

[Ghost_Hacker]

Hi Beno!

Try this link first it explains the startup process and the files used for Windows 9X :
9X structure (http://www.techtutorials.com/tutorials/9xstructure.shtml)


This link explains what the MSDOS.SYS( the "DOS" kernel) file is in windows:
MSKB Q118579 (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;q118579&ID=KB;EN-US;q118579)


What I want to know is "Does Win9x systems run on top of does??

Yes and no http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif . There is only ONE kernel running, however Windows 9X does use some of the "DOS" structure to run programs. (For instance it uses DOS "INT21h" calls). Windows runs it's version of DOS whenever it needs to do certain task like setting up drive assigments or getting the system time. (NOTE: this is not the same as a hard drive being in "MS-DOS compatibility mode".)

why can't win9x be an op.sys that is fully self contained and that doesn't have to rely on the old DOS op.sys??

Backwards compatiablity is the official MS reason.




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 01-28-2002).]

[mjc]

And of course this includes ME....because it is still the 9x "flavor" of Windows (even though in ME things are more hidden they are still there)

And I can't really come up with anything to add to GH's listing, except that when you look at the vast number of machines that still run older software (and up until fairly recently certain game manufacturers offerings that required DOS), you will realize why it was in MS best interest to keep "backwards compatiblity" for as long as possible...$$$

If a business has several hundred (or thousands) computers all running a version of Windows and alarge program that is vital to that business, what would happen if Windows no longer supported that program?

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Beno]

mjc or ghost_hacker can answer this one, or any1 else can as well!

You say that the io.sys file takes over the functions of the config.sys and autoexec.bat files, or the links that Ghost_Hacker has given me say that anyway. Why then do we still have these files in the root directory then???

Is it because DOS is loaded up first and then the core files of windows overwrite these loaded files?? or is there some other reason??

And are you saying that I can run any of my 32 bit applications without having to use any of the old system files such as config.sys and sys.ini and win.ini etc?? Has the registry taken over from all the old system files??

Cheers

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Have a nice day

[This message has been edited by Beno (edited 01-29-2002).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

Is it because DOS is loaded up first and then the core files of windows overwrite these loaded files?? or is there some other reason??


First let me stress that there is no "DOS" and then "Windows" it's not a case of seperation of the two. In other words it isn't like DOS 6 loads and then is removed once Windows 98 loads . The "DOS" code is part of Windows so that if you overwrote the "DOS" code in memory Windows would lockup. Just remember that the DOS Windows uses is not the same as MSDOS. Only the Windows version of DOS can use FAT32. (For example the FDISK program that comes with Windows 98 allows "large disk" support, so it will setup a drive to be formated in FAT32. The FDISK that comes with MSDOS does not). The DOS version Window uses is called DOS VM. Windows uses it's version of DOS at startup and even while running pure 32 bit applications ( All programs are terminated thur a "DOS" call in Windows for example). Since Windows uses "DOS" calls during startup it's limited to having all it's startup files on the "C" drive.


And are you saying that I can run any of my 32 bit applications without having to use any of the old system files such as config.sys and sys.ini and win.ini etc?? Has the registry taken over from all the old system files??


Yes, the registry has taken over the duties that the old INI files use to perform. However those files are still needed for backwards compatabilty.



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 01-29-2002).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

You say that the io.sys file takes over the functions of the config.sys and autoexec.bat files, or the links that Ghost_Hacker has given me say that anyway. Why then do we still have these files in the root directory then???


Opps..missed one. Those files remain because of backwards compatiablity. (again) In fact the IO.sys file will be padded with "nonsense" in order to make it the same size as the old IO.sys file.

[iisbob]

You can remove the win.ini file-however windows will just reinitialize it again; you , however, should NEVER remove the system.ini file as it contains the paths for your executables and windows directory itself.

if you delete it you'll not be able to load windows.

When NT was first released ( 1993 to the general public ) 16 bit support was enabled as an after thought, as MS and other software companies were fast discovering the benefit's of 32 bit coding. NT ( and 2000/XP ) use a 32bit DOS emulater called NTVDM { NT virtual DOS machine ) which run's in it's on seperate memroy space ( there is also a file called wowexec.exe to handle 16 bit apps), if you ever start a program from the " run " command line you'll notice a little box checked saying " run in a seperate memory space "-this is to protect your CPU & other hardware from having 16 bit apps make a direct call on yor hard ware and causeing crashes ( 32 bit apps already run in a seperate space ).

This is called " user " mode-whereas the NT kernel operates in " priviliged " or " protected " mode; making system crashes less likely to occur.

it ain't fool proof of course http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

95/98 allow 16 bit apps to reacte to the hardware more closely than NT does, hence the more often these misbehaving apps can cause crashes/lockups.

Even in today's modern world a knowledge of DOS is imperative-if you can navigate your way in a command line interface, ther is nothing you can't troubleshoot in the PC world.

Kinda like driving a stick shift-gives you a much broader range of choices in operating automobiles.



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iisbob

CPU= 5mhz
Memory= 16 K
Storage=10.2MB's
Video=Onboard S3 4K
Modem=14.4 baud
Sound=ISA Yamaha 8bit
Mouse=2 button MS
Monitor=ACER 12.5"
OS= { dual boot }DOS 2.1 & WIN 3.1

My ultimate gaming system :)

[Beno]

Hey mjc, Ghost_hacker and iisbob - thanks for your replies
I went to Borders bookshop here in Sydney and checked out Stephen Bigelows book on PC's and maintenance (its like 3 metres thicK!!) and read up on a bit about op.sys like Win9x and DOS and he was basically saying what you guys were saying so good 1!!!

You guys know your stuff really well. You must do a lot of reading or a lot of computing or are gifted individuals!!

Cheers

Beno

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Have a nice day

[mjc]

All of the above??

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Beno]

HUH mjc???!

By the way, I moved my win.ini, autoexec.bat, config.sys files into another folder and the computer started up fine.

Great guns!!

If these files are there, then are they doing anything useful when Win9x/ME boots up??? I mean if they are there, they would run but would serve no purpose when windows was running because everything comes out of the registry from my discovery and from what other people have written.

Tell me if you think i am on the right path.

Thanks mate

Beno

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Have a nice day

[Ghost_Hacker]

You guys know your stuff really well......

Can't speak for iisbob,but in my case it just leftover "know-how" from Windows 3.11 days. Back then knowing your way around INI files and the inner workings of DOS helped fix alot of problems. Now it's only good for showing your level of "geekness" http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


If these files are there, then are they doing anything useful when Win9x/ME boots up???......Tell me if you think i am on the right path

Yes, your on the right path. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif Most of the information for running programs and starting up windows comes from the registry. The files you mentioned are only needed if you have drivers or programs that read them. However Windows 9X does use the [run] and [load] sections of the win.ini file to run any "old style" startup programs that have written information there. Also some desktop information can be found in the win.ini file. A good way to see if any of these startup files are needed on your system is to run "MSCONFIG" or the "system information" tool in the "programs | accessories | system tools" folder.

If you open "MSCONFIG" you'll notice that you have the option to choose which startup files you want to process. However I must disagree with iisbob (sorry mate http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif) on the system.ini file. If you where to remove this file windows would use (or create?) a default one. But if windows didn't recreate it, then as iisbob pointed out, windows would fail to load. Please note however that just because you can remove these ini files doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif You never know when a program or windows will want to use them.



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 01-30-2002).]

[Pianorak]

<< . . . and the inner workings of DOS helped fix alot of problems. Now it's only good for showing your level of "geekness" >>

Ghost Hacker: Are you telling me that Michael Meyers' got it all wrong?:
"Those who fail to learn DOS are doomed never to understand Windows." (A+ Certification, p. 515) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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The PC Guide ueber alles – with Google a close second.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Ghost Hacker: Are you telling me that Michael Meyers' got it all wrong?:
"Those who fail to learn DOS are doomed never to understand Windows."

Well nooooo.... he's right about that if you don't understand DOS you'll never be able to grasp all the ins and outs of how Windows works. But I don't feel you need to understand Windows in order to fix it. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif
(A quick look around my last job's IT dept. proved that theory to me http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif)

Anyway,I can't remember the last time I fixed anything by editing any ini files (other than boot.ini). Most of my "system" fixes are done by editing the registry either directly or thur the control panel.

[mjc]

You must do a lot of reading or a lot of computing or are gifted individuals!!



That was what I referring to........


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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Beno]

Thats a compliment for you mjc ;-)

Beno

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Have a nice day