DOS Memory and Windows?

[Beno]

Hey gang,

I'm reading through a chapter in my A+ book on "DOS Memory in a Windows World". Throughout the chapter so far the author has always been refering to the DOS machine. Like when he talks about extended, conventional and reserved memory he always refers back to the DOS PC and so on.......

He then states that video cards of today all have ROM on them and use these memory locations C0000 -> C7FFF. I get confused because is he saying that video cards used in todays Windows machines use those addresses or is it for video cards that reside in DOS machines only??

One more question for you techs out there!!
Is what he is talking about with all this DOS memory management still apply in today's Windows machines or is what he is talking about only apply to PC's that have DOS and DOS only loaded onto them??

He hasn't really made a clear distinction if all this applies to DOS while it is running in windows or DOS on its own in all its entirety.

Thanks to everyone who can comment

Beno

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Have a nice day

[YODA74]

http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000540.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000544.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000561.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000563.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000566.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000574.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000524.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000459.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000609.html http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000621.html

Have you really ever tried reading the Book? Here's what you do,
I would really suggest that other than the book that you enroll in some classes at a local college Just a thought

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 02-05-2002).]

[Beno]

YODA

whats up your ass. this is a forum to ask questions not for other members to become smart ass's

if you don't want to answer it then don't write anything and keep your thoughts to yourself in future.

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[sea69]

wait a second here BENO, who the hell elected you for anything??????

you have the nerve to critisize someone who generally answers your questions??

and on top of which BENO, I would point out to you that of the 137 posts that you have here, only THREE are NOT a question!@!@!!

so, if we are not doing your frikkin homework for you then why (as your questions sound intelligent) have you not answered but one question way back when, and commented on 2 others, while THE REST of you 135 posts have ALL BEEN QUESTIONS.

I advise your lack of gratitude is most unbecoming.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Beno]

Sea,

I'm sure when I have around 2500 or so post like you do, then I will be answering to the many questions put up on this forum. I haven't got the time to count how many Q's you have asked but I'm sure you asked a stack load of questions when you were new to the site, even when you only had 137 posts to your name.

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[sea69]

yes I ask questions EVERYDAY.

I also answer them, and if I don't know the answer I try to find it.

From this I learn as well.

I would point out that we joined this site at almost the same time.

The difference is that I don't always take.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Beno]

Your really buggin me Sea,

I don't know about you but I have very little time on my hands working two jobs and doing full time uni with 6 kids in my household all under the age of 15.

Maybe if I had as much time as you, I would have ~2500 posts to my name.

And if I don't seem to give to this forum as much as you would like then for your information, I give about $1000 to charity each year here in Australia - do u do that??


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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[sea69]

"Your really buggin me Sea,"

tough. the truth does generally bother people.

"I don't know about you but I have very little time on my hands working two jobs and doing full time uni with 6 kids in my household all under the age of 15."

who's fault is that??

"Maybe if I had as much time as you, I would have ~2500 posts to my name."

perhaps, but I doubt it.

as for my time my friend from Oz, I run several Recovery Centers for young adults, (as well as residential living, which is a 24 hour job) who have problems with addiction, and I own a small computer shop (which I would not have if it were not for what I have learned HERE.)

"And if I don't seem to give to this forum as much as you would like then for your information, I give about $1000 to charity each year here in Australia - do u do that??"

I AM a charitable institution, I am certified 501(c)3 by the United States Federal Gov.

I don't care personnaly if you ask 137 questions 137 times a day, but I do mind the attitude.

whats up your ass. this is a forum to ask questions not for other members to become smart ass's

if you don't want to answer it then don't write anything and keep your thoughts to yourself in future.

please continue to post here as you wish, but I would let you know that you are only "spinning on half your HDD"- you would learn much more not being as self centered.

g'day m8

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Beno]

Just for your info - the 5 kids that I have running around the household are not my own kids. They are all adopted from Cali Columbia by my parents so its no fault of my own that I have them, only your fault for presuming that I did!! never ever assume Sea because if you do you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" !!

anyway I'm tired of this immaturity and you thinking that I am self centered. enoughs enoughs you know what I'm sayin!



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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[Whyzman]

Beno,

Which of the A+ textbooks are you reading...and to which chapter would you be referring?

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!

Whyzman

[Beno]

G'day Whyzman,

I am reading the Mike Meyers A+ 3rd Edition book, in particular chapter 12.

I seem to be at a loss with this forum now!

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[ixl]

This thread is very disappointing. I suppose the good part is that this type of thing happens very rarely around here.

I would remind everyone that the number one rule of these forums is to treat others with respect. There is no need for hostilities, rude comments, insults and so forth to deal with PC issues of any sort.

The forums are here for anyone to ask a question who wants. By the same token, everyone is free to either respond or not respond to a posting, as they see fit. If you see a question asked that you feel indicates that someone is not doing their own homework, ignore it. And if someone asks a question that gets back a response that is to the effective of "here are some resources, you should do some more homework", they should consider that maybe that is exactly what they should do.

Finally, everyone should also consider that if someone makes a comment that they don't like, it is at least possible that they did not mean offense by it. Try to defuse situations--not make them worse. Also, nobody is requireed to answer questions here, and I really don't want people to feel obligated to answer anything they don't feel comfortable with.

Play nice people. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


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Charles M. Kozierok
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...
Note: Please reply to my forum postings here on the forums. Thanks.

[tgmoon]

Back before Windows came along, 1 mb of memory was considered, according to Bill Gates, to be quite ample. Programs written for Dos were more effecient than the bloated monsters of today. The first 640k of this 1 mb is conventional memory. That above 640 is extended. The two memory managers used to access and utilize the 'upper' memory is emm386.exe and hymem.sys. Memory above 1mb was considered 'expanded' memory. If you are booting up into Dos, (forget about Windows for a moment) you would load the two memory managers from config.sys, and thus make Dos more effecient.
Windows OS does not require these memory managers and uses it's own built-in memory manager and allocates space for when you want to work in a Dos window (still limited to one thread in the Dos window).
As for the video card, the rom on the video card is copied into regular system memory for faster access (as is the bios rom). Hope this helps...

[iisbob]

Good answer, however ol Bill actually said; 640K is enough for anybody -sadly he { and others ] misinterpeted the growth of the PC industry.

Just 5 years ago if you told me that i'd have a system the needs at least 512MB's of fast RAM to perform to it's utmost, i'd have called you nuts. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Beno-personally i could care less about your private life or lack therof; there is no cause for the vitrol that has been displayed here by any party. If you wish to continue posting here, feel free-if you wish for a better comaraderie w/forum members-show us that you have learned from your questions and attempt to answer some-if you're wrong, then that's ok. We learn as much from our mistakes as our successes-but please attempt to keep it civil here.
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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iisbob

CPU= 5mhz
Memory= 16 K
Storage=10.2MB's
Video=Onboard S3 4K
Modem=14.4 baud
Sound=ISA Yamaha 8bit
Mouse=2 button MS
Monitor=ACER 12.5"
OS= { dual boot }DOS 2.1 & WIN 3.1

My ultimate gaming system :)

[BigBlue66]

Yep, the only way to retain one's knowledge, is to give it away. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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This space reserved for highly intelligent observations and witty remarks.

"From up on the roof top there came such a clamor, I ran to the window and threw up"
-- Tommy Smothers

[Ghost_Hacker]

How did this post go south so quick?.......

Anyway, C0000 -> C7FFF is a resevered area of memory that is used by all x86 computers to hold the video BIOS. It's a left over from the DOS days because it's a ROM address range (in fact it's called the video ROM) and ROM runs in real mode (IE: DOS). Windows can use a VxD to access this same memory area.

As for the video card, the rom on the video card is copied into regular system memory for faster access (as is the bios rom)

This is called bios shadowing (ROM address space is mapped to RAM address space) and the recommendation is to turn it off in your BIOS. Because Windows ,and most operating systems in use today, bypass the BIOS for device control (IE: drivers need not run in "real mode"), shadowing offers no speed inprovement. (but in the DOS days this setting did improve system performance.)



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 02-06-2002).]

[mjc]

I was going to say something last night, had it mostly typed, and then I re-read it and realized that what I was about to say would probably be like throwing some gasoline on it......

SO, now that things are a little calmer.....

Beno, yep you have been asking a lot of questions that with a little more research you possibly could have found answers to on your own, but at the same time they are not exactly your run of the mill "homework" questions either......and some of the questions have resulted in very good answers, one or two of which I'm very glad to have read (and I doubt Mike Meyers could have said it any better.......) So not wanting to get into your reasoning/why you asked what you asked at least you picked pretty good ones.... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

And yes some of the others definitely can be/are frustrated in what seems to be a constant barrage of questions from someone, who is trying to learn but is not seen as applying what has been learned...

And yes the best way to learn something is to teach someone else how to do it.....

As far as it goes, about the only one I haven't seen post a question to the forums about a problem has been Ghost_Hacker (hmmm....I wonder). We all got 'em (some more than others)

I'm going to take a stab at making a translation of yoda's suggestion....That maybe if you are running into more than an occasional difficulty understanding the subject matter, it may be time to seek out a more formal approach, like a class at a college, the instructor would problably be in a better position to answer than a general help forum...which after all may not be a bad idea, more experience is always a plus in this game.

Sea, do you have any Irish ancestors? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the qustion at hand.....actually yes, if you use any DOS programs in Windows then DOS memory does interact with Windows, and I believe that Windows "errs" on the side of compatablity, but if you just run Windows apps then everything will be fine to ignore DOS, but in reality with the range of hardware/software in common usage anyone who is involved in computer should at least be familiar with the way DOS does things. As for the memory for the video card......yep still used, but again, if you know you don't have anything that requires it it can be freed up (all for compatablity again). And now that most video cards are using FlashROMs the necessity of shadowing is decreasing (in some case the FlashROM is faster than the RAM it is copied into)

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Ghost_Hacker]

As far as it goes, about the only one I haven't seen post a question to the forums about a problem has been Ghost_Hacker..

I think I did ask a Linux question once, but I don't remember what it was.
I've gotten really good at researching problems over the years (GH stands up with great pride and pats himself on the back http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ) and so can normaly find the answers to any questions I might have. (GH stands once again to acknowledge the cheers from the grand stand http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif )

Oh well back to work......

[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 02-06-2002).]

[sea69]

Sea, do you have any Irish ancestors?

hehe... doesn't everybody??

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif




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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[andyswork@beci.net]

Ghost some how on your post you always put a smile on my face, thanks. And many thaks to all of you masters for all the help you have given me.
It has taken me a while to be able to research my many questions, and then after research I scratch my old grey beard and say to self what is he saying, I do not understand.
Some of you have the ability to put things technical in a way, to us not so technical people can understand.
I could post questions all day long on things I have researched and do not understand, but I try not to bog down the forums.
I just say all of you do an excellant job and keep up the good work. I think instead of shooting to be a pro, I need to shoot at being a master, with a barn.

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One day I will be a pro, Thanks Andy

[sea69]

Andy- I see you asking (and answering) questions all the time and I have never given it a second thought. You are always nice, and your questions seem to have a purpose, you are trying to fix something for yourself or someone else.

I could post questions all day long on things I have researched and do not understand, but I try not to bog down the forums.

and you have realized that this is a computer site, not a homework I don't understand will you explain my textbook to me site.

Not that it is wrong to ask questions pertaining to computers, for ANY reason- it's just.. well... you know..

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Beno]

Hi,

I have read all of your posts and come to the conclusion that I will make more of an effort to answer back to people's posts on this forum.

I understand that i have asked a signifigant number of questions than answering questions but I am still an apprentice at this trade and not an "aspirant master geek" as my title would say.

mjc -> I prefer not to pay for courses because they are such rip off's so therefore I self learn everything. My family know zilch about computers so this is my only place where i can come to ask questions, and since I am learning I ask more questions than I do answer them.

sea -> I hope by the responses some people have made, you have learned not to be a bully and make such a big fiasco. It wasn't just you, it was me as well, so I should restate that the both of us should of learned from this post and to IXL's requests, that we don't carry on like this in future.

So i suggest that we start of fresh as far as our postings go and just "get over it" ok!! :-) Like I said, I will try to make more of an effort when I can to answer people's questions.

Thanks to everyone else who has been supportive including sea69!!

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[sea69]

sea -> I hope by the responses some people have made, you have learned not to be a bully and make such a big fiasco.

LoL~!@!~... me a "bully"??

I just calls them as I see's them.. never said I was always right.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 02-06-2002).]

[Beno]

Yes you - thats right! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[Paleo Pete]

I decide to take a day off and the place goes to hell in a handbasket...and the UBB icon I want won't work because I have java turned off...great...

Beno I think the main point here is not whether you answer questions or not, but that it appears

a) You insulted and harrassed someone who did, after all provide resources for your use in researching your question and

b) You didn't appear to research it yourself beforehand.

The PC Guide links provided include a lot of information that would go a long way toward explaining the issues concerned. I can say that without even reading through them, because I know quite well the people here who post links of that type are very reliable.

Nobody is expected to attempt answering questions here under any circumstances. People who are attempting to study computers are, however, expected to try to the best of their ability to research their questions as much as possible on their own before asking here. We also tend to avoid handing anyone an answer to this type of question on a platter, you'll remember it if you have to dig a bit for it.

Nothing was wrong with your question, it can't be seen as asking us to do your homework for you, but at the same time it might seem that you aren't trying, to someone who expends the effort to repeatedly search for information that can be found with a bit of effort by going to Google (http://www.google.com) or the main PC Guide site and looking through the Topic Index.

As for classes, no they are not a rip off. You won't learn everything you need to know by attending classes, but a lot of ground is covered that would be very beneficial. Most community colleges offer classes that should be very useful. Once the books are behind you some practical experience is a necessity. And the instructors can usually answer a lot of questions of the same type as this one. I don't know what Australia might have as an equivalent of the community college here in the US, but I'm fairly confident something similar should be available. Check into it, you're not talking about high school here...

I'm mostly self educated, so I understand that idea quite well, but I also have the IQ to handle it and know how to go about researching whatever I want to learn. I've been at it since I was 7 years old, I was into college textbooks when I was 10 or 12. I read everything I could get my hands on, and almost any subject matter was a target. I had the equivalent of a 4 year college education before I was out of high school, all on my own. But when I asked anyone a question, I had already exhausted every form of resources I could think of. The public library was always the first thing I would look up in a new town and I moved a LOT.

All that considered, I would be in a college course concerning computers right now if I could scrape up the money to pay for it. I've managed to learn quite a bit on my own, but a decent class would be beneficial in some areas.

Purchasing used computers at resale shops etc helps a lot too, and trying to repair or rebuild them. Nothing like trying to figure out why a 4.77MHz XT with 256K RAM and a 360K floppy won't boot...It has no BIOS, no device manager, no control panel, often no mouse, and if you're lucky it might have a hard drive...about 10MB usually...and it's all DOS, no such thing as Safe Mode...The 386/486 class machines can be very educational, not as difficult as dealing with an XT, and many of the same problems we deal with every day will be staring you in the face in a hurry. And once you get one running some great old games are available on the net...



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Support the right to keep and arm bears.
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

[mjc]

Just a suggestion, and yeah, a lot depends on your local crop of instructors......I was lucky back when I was taking classes (many years ago...so many that I forgot most of it) that I had some good ones, but I must admit it would be hard finding instructors to match some of the talent here.......also drop in the chat room some time, because some of the book questions would be better off asked/answered there, mainly because it is "real-time" interaction........PCGuide Chat (http://www.pcguide.com/irc-c.html)


And you know what, we all have made mistakes and some pretty good ones at that....so don't be afraid to get your feet wet....just do like I did when I first started answering questions here......read most all of them and answer only those that you really know the answer to and soon enough, you'll find that you know alot more and can answer more (ask Kay about that...that is about hw she did it, now she is not only a valuable asset, but probably the sweetest and most diplomatic of all of us.... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.


[This message has been edited by mjc (edited 02-07-2002).]

[Beno]

Paleo Pete and mjc - thanks for your suggestions and advice.

For Paleo's sake, I am at university doing a degree in Computer Science. I'm in my last year!! However I have only done one course on hardware and that was computer architecture. I have not failed one course and I have a GPA of 2.84, and all of my computer courses I have recieved a credit or higher. Not trying to "Big note" myself here but what I am saying is that all this achievement that I have got only came with extensive reading and LOTS of asking questions to my lecturers. I know all my lecturers on a first name basis and I see them regulalry........they all know who I am!!! but I am proud of that. A lot of my peers wouldn't have the guts to see the lecturers because they are afraid, but the way I see it is that they are paid by students like me to give me knowledge so make the most of it - and I do as you could all probably imagine!!
But Paleo, I'm sorry the courses here in Australia are a rip off. I have already investigated it. $2500 for a 5 day course on hardware is just ludicrous and they can all "Get Stuffed" in my opinion. It really is just outrageous some of the things that people think they can get away with.

mjc -> you seem like a good guy and I will take on your advice as well as Paleo's. I don't even know you people from face value, but intuition tells me by the way you respond, that you guys are the mentor's around here.

Maybe after "Grand Master Geek" title they should have a title called "Mentor"!! What does IXL think about that one!!

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[mjc]

Gee....maybe some of us should come down there for a vacation.....and teach a few courses, (I am assuming the figures you gave are for AU dollars), still $500/day/student....somebody is making out like a bandit. I think a couple of us could handle something like that http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif!!



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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Beno]

mjc -> yeah that is australian dollars - to get US dollars I'm sorry to say on my behalf - but halve that figure to put in US dollars so US$1250. I will be in the US at the end of this year in a place called Steamboat.

I think the US pay there staff over there pretty good dollars as well.
For me to work over there would be good, because when I come back to Australia to convert the money I would be like twice as rich - well sort of!!

Cya mate or dude (as you yanks would say)

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"

[Whyzman]

Beno,

I assume you're going to Steamboat to do some skiing? And, if it's not in your itinerary, I would certainly insist! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

When we lived in Colorado we did most of our skiing at Copper Mountain just due to ease of access. However, we did make a trip to Steamboat for a week of downhill. It was fantastic! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Werner Mountain, on which Steamboat resides, extends like a steeple from the surrounding terrain!

There's a "green" (easiest) run from near the top of the mountain all the way to the bottom. Riding the lift up is actually a treat due to the panoramic view..."On a clear day you can see forever!" http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

The lodge where we were staying was actually walking distance to a lift...in the evening after a day on the slopes we literally skied to our front door!

Enjoy your stay! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!

Whyzman

[Beno]

Hey Whyzman,

I've been fortunate enough to have been to Steamboat a few times now as well as Aspen!!! But I must say that I like Steamboat the best! Aspen tends to get a bit snooty for which I am not at all. Too many furcoats and not enough real people.........however a beautiful piece of country.

I skied alongside a guy called "Billy the Kid", a local there who used to be a world champ in skiing. He wears a cowboy hat! Steamboat has some awesome powder espicailly through the tree's and like you said, when you get to the top you can see for miles and miles. And the air is so clean and Ohhhh -> I want to go NOW!! I'm watering at the mouth in Sunny Hot Sydney!!

I am going there with my girlfriend, as she has never been to the USA before. I love the USA and the people there. They are so friendly and are very confident. Australians are a little more "stand off ish" (shy) compared to the americian people. And the Sept 11 issue is not turning me of whatsoever.

I have heard of Copper Mt as well, sounds really cool.
Going to look at a skiing video now - catch ya later mate.

Beno

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"Don't stop till you get enough"