Saving As...

[Paul Komski]

"Save As" is relevant to some current forums. When this command is chosen, (a) one is given an option of where to save and (b) another one of the format in which it is to be saved.

A drop-down menu of the available formats is then provided.

My real fundamental question is this. How is this drop-down menu selection prepared?

In other words, is there software dynamically working-out which formats it is able to "translate" the selected item into or is it selecting these from a pre-determined list? Or could there even be a predetermined list, which is then filtered by the format of the actual item or file? Also, if the items are predetermined, where is this information stored?

I hope that makes sense. A current example under discussion. Select a graphics file displayed in IE and then choose Save As. What determines the selection of formats that can be chosen from? How does that really work? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif I've done a lot of searching without success. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif



------------------
Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
Soup du jour: "I'm on two diets coz you don't get enough to eat on one." (anon)

[bassman]

Hey Paul,
I'm sure you are still following the other thread http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif
To see a list of file types, open a folder, hit Tools>Folder options>File types. There are several options and settings there that a person could have some fun with http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

As for how is it determined when saving as, windows recognizes the format type and produces a list based on what the original is and some other applicable formats (for graphics, Bitmap is universal).
I sometimes get the option to save as ".ART", which can be viewed with IE.

Hope that helps http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif

------------------
Waiting patiently for the future to arrive. Frank's Place (http://dreamwater.net/tech/frankscomp/)

[Paul Komski]

Thanks bassman. I have been playing around a bit with File types, advanced settings etc. But that's for another day.

OK then; Windows recognises the format. Having recognised it, the relevant application presumably then knows (or thinks it knows) which conversions it can make to that format and displays these options as "Save As"; these converters probably being stored somewhere in a relevant dll

Now either these conversions aren't always perfect or the saved file (with its unique extension) can actually have a different format from the same file-type created by another application. For example: fully-loaded webpages saved by IE as html can usually be opened by word but sometimes they are not recognised as a "valid html"; and I have known of many examples of graphics files created by one application not being recognised as valid by another application; one that normally uses files with that extension. So when this happens, either the processes have been corrupted during conversion (or the file was corrupt to start with) or else the standards being used for that format have not been standardised.

I'd like to understand if this is due to faulty converson or non-standardisation? (Coz not understanding things drives my obsessional side nuts! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif )

------------------
Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
Citation du mois: "There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots."

[bassman]

HEHEHEHEeee
OK Paul, lets have a cup o tea and think about some of the realities here.
Someone once described to me, how Windows works in a very visual way. It went something like this.
Imagine an apprentice juggeler practicing with Velcro balls in a small room completely covered in carpet.
Most of the time it goes along quite well, but sometimes things stick to the ceiling or a wall. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

With that thought in your mind, also think about this. Most "Standards" in this industry are more theory than reality. The idea that one program reads and thuroughly understands another's format would be a wonderful thing, but is not perfect (yet???).
If this theory were a reality, we would only have a few formats in all (probably handed down by the OS) and all program writers would comply with that. Then we would have true standards.

As for why "Paint", which reads .jpgs, won't read a particular .jpeg created in "Paintshop"(just examples), I'm not sure what to tell you there http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif Maybe remember the above visual http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Waiting patiently for the future to arrive. Frank's Place (http://dreamwater.net/tech/frankscomp/)

[Paul Komski]

LOL http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Velcro Balls - Love it - and me with carpets on the ceiling! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[kayofcircles]

The only time that I have had any difficulty with reading a format that supposedly "should" display is when the file is coming from a newer version. Like I couldn't get a "doc" file to open in WordPad, no way, no how..because was created in Works 2010 or something. Or my husband sent me a pic from his Visioneer scanner, and my Visioneer scanner can't "read" it..same reason.

As long as we're discussing oddities, I noticed long ago that if I was trying to save a file from a PSP format (PaintShopPro) to a .tif format (so that the Kodak imaging included in 98 could read it), I had to duplicate the file first, then save as a tif. If I don't duplicate the file first, the tif file shows as a tif, but won't open anywhere (not Kodak, not even PSP!). Reminds me of when I was trying to open a file in Corel..it wouldn't open at all until I opened a "copy" rather than trying to open the original.

May have to settle for the Velcro ball explanation, eh? Nice visual, bassman.

[newbee]

I don't even understand why the save is appears, I thought that when you downloaded or installed a file association is created?

[Rick]

The file association is not created just by downloading it.
An installation program or the user has to set the association.

If I were to send you a CPT ( Corel Photo Paint ) file of any size and you downloaded it.
Your system could not read it unless you have a program compatible with that format

A Number of programs have created their own format for files.
GIF is a good example. It is used and readable by many software packages.
BUT Only after the Author Paid for permission to use it in there software.
Then they Must meet the file and conversion specification provided by the Copywriter.

Like other formats that use a standard file format That Does NOT change with each new release
TIF is one of these ( At least In my system) Every program I have works with TIF regardless of what program I used to save it

The program that you are using to save the file using SAVE AS Must fully support that format and Conversion. As well as the different version of that format

DOC is another example as mentioned above , Word, Wordpad, and Works are Not all the same file format. ( Guess who wrote those 3) the same company!
Or the Many variation of ANSI text file TXT
JPG JPEG are not the same
Even one version number difference in the file format or file conversion process makes a world of Difference
The Compression algorithm used in JPG for example . Can cause a program to Mis read it or Not read it at all.

[Whyzman]

Sleuthing says "always follow the money!" http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

We were discussing something similar in another thread somewhere recently...

My example was Adobe Acrobat where you can download for free Acrobat Reader for viewing and printing files created in Acrobat, sans the ability to alter or create Acrobat files....Price For Adobe Acrobat retail?

At first, it makes $$ sense to make their created files proprietary in nature...they've done R and D and forked out the bucks for marketing...now they want a return on investment.

It then appears that at some point in time companies come to realize that their totally propietary file formats also have a downside as their software doesn't fill all the voids, e.g. image editing. And, since other programs are being equally proprietary...their mutual exclusivity begins to hinder rather than help...market their respective products. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

Since we're following the money, I suspect that file transfer capabilities are mutually beneficial ($$)! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Thus, within each program it would make sense for the programmers to announce their Software's versatility (Windows encodes these as SAVE AS options) or, as in my Corel Draw program, where I can also SAVE AS into a host of file formats. Certain transfers I make are necessary to bring into and utilize in my GERBER PLOTTER. Gerber provides their own proprietary software but also realizes they don't have a "complete" package for image editing.

Gerber tech-support actually steered me to Corel Draw due to Corel's Auto Trace program. However, getting it out of Corel into Gerber actually required taking it through an AI (Adobe Illustrator) file format. And, all this needed to happen without file degradation/loss.

The algorithms to transfer from one file format to another are inter-related i.e. vector based, or rastor based. That's why if you create a drawing in Paint (bitmap/rastor) you would not get the option to SAVE AS a Gerber Plotter file format...as it would require a vectored format.

I say all that to say this...Whew http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif A lot of handshaking appears to be going on these days allowing consumers to interweave applications...the possible file transfers are either being reported to Windows when installing individual programs...or, Windows has permission to program/announce the availability as a service (Buy me I'm a very versatile program http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif ) from the software developers. IMHO! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

------------------
May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

[Paul Komski]

Rick really useful stuff for the comprehension stakes. I have been told that txt, gif, jpg, html and htm formats can "cross-over" onto a Mac Platform. Do you know if the same is true of .tif files too?


------------------
Take nice care of yourselves - Paul
Citation du mois: "There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots."

[Rick]

YES mac does work with TIF
In Fact you can check it with Quicktime and or Quicktimes Picture Viewer

I have found one thing about TIF files.
using Adobe photo to save as Tif files it has an option to save IBM or MAC style.
I have used both with No hassles from picture viewer

[Rick]

Whyzman

File conversion between programs and formats has been known to give a good many people head aches.
I recall one program I used after the release of windows 95 that was designed for just that purpose..
At the time paying $100 for a graphics file converter that supported almost ever file format was great.
Or so I believed.
If it hadn’t tried to take over my graphics display of files in the desktop and explorer
I may very well still be using it.
But having it display Icons of each Photo and or graphic
Put a VERY LARGE hit on system performance .
It stuck around for about one week.
It was then removed and to this day I can’t even tell you where the cd is for it.

The idea is still good. Even the price if it works correctly .
Being able to transfer a DWG from autocad 10 to almost anything is well worth the price.

This page is a little old. But it has 4 pages and lists Many file formats also even has a few programs that may still be around http://www.faqs.org/faqs/graphics/fileformats-faq/part1/

[kayofcircles]

Whew...Rick..and thanks. I prefer exchanging pics from puter to puter in tif format..via floppy if I can..and glad to hear that MAC reads those. (Hadn't worried about that yet since I don't know anyone now with MAC.) Bitmaps too big, and jpgs too lossy. Thanks for link too.