VHS format finally dies

[PrntRhd]

VHS tape players are finally going away:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081222-last-major-vhs-supplier-throws-in-the-towel.html

Back when these came out they promised the tapes would play for years and years.
Assuming someone still made the player. :eek:

[mjc]

I bet Beta would have lasted another year or two...

[Budfred]

I better run out and buy some more VHS blank tapes... I have been using the same ones to record programs for years and I am sure they will wear out eventually... :D

[Mini-Me]

Interesting.
You can still buy VHS video recorders here in NZ, but only as combo's with a DVD player. I have not seen a stand-alone VHS recorder for sale for several years now.

"The DVD will be obsolete in three or four years, no doubt about it. Everything will be Blu-ray,"

Well, I think it will be harder to kill DVD now that just about everything has been released to the DVD format - I don't see DVD being obsolete quite so soon, but you never know what tomorrow will bring...

There is a plethora of titles available on DVD, far more titles then were ever available on VHS, so with so many billions of discs available, I personally don't see the DVD vanishing anytime soon. Blu-Ray players will play DVD's, so I suppose that is the backwards compatibility issue taken care of.

Technically, Blu-Ray is a clever format, but I have my doubts as to the durability of Blu-Ray in the rental market - look at how many problems there are today with rental DVD's and scratches on them causing playback problems from skipping to total lock-up of the player. Blu-Ray uses track dimensions considerably narrower then that of DVD, which will make them even more prone to playback problems unless the disc is kept spotlessly clean and scratch free.

Time will tell, I guess.

[hockey man]

Ya, I would agree, with so many DVD's out there, and Blue-Ray still being expensive, it will probably be a little more than that.

[Whyzman]

I'm betting Blue-Ray will go the way of the DoDo shortly also...for that very reason that the disks can easily suffer harm. My hunch is that we're quickly on our way to solid-state. I've a friend who markets drives to bands who use the flash drives rather than selling CDs with their music. For those attending live concerts, the music can be in their hands as they leave the event.

I was listening to the CEO of a company similar to TicketMaster being interviewed by Michael Eisner the other day. Their marketing is is reaching far beyond just tickets...parking passes, T-shirts, the concert on flash...collectible drives with the band, date, etc. laser etched...

I've many hundreds of VHS tapes. I suspect that the players will be around for a while. There's no easy way to transfer them over to digital format.

[Mini-Me]

I kinda think that they have pushed optical disc technology as far as they can in a practical world.

Personally, I think that Blu-Ray is slightly over the mark, but still a viable format if you look after the discs carefully - but many people DON'T.

Having said that, I totally agree with your comment about solid-state methods.

With the price of 8GB flash-disks being so cheap, this would certainly be a potential market for the supply and rental of movies on flash-disks instead of DVD's. While flash-disks can't compete(yet) with the capacity of Blu-Ray discs, and so would not really be suitable for high-definition, 8GB flash-disks have the capacity to almost hold an entire dual-layer DVD worth of playback. I suppose it's still cheaper to produce DVD's or Blu-Ray discs per unit, then flash-drive's per-unit, so for the meantime, until flash-disks of suitable capacity drop in price again...

But I agree - I think this is the way movies and rentals are headed.

[mjc]

8GB flash-disks have the capacity to almost hold an entire dual-layer DVD worth of playback. I suppose it's still cheaper to produce DVD's or Blu-Ray discs per unit, then flash-drive's per-unit, so for the meantime, until flash-disks of suitable capacity drop in price again...

But I agree - I think this is the way movies and rentals are headed.

If you chop all the promos, warnings in 50 languages and other useless crap, you'll find that most dual-layer DVDs are slightly under 8 GBs in actual content.

I think one reason that Flash memroy isn't embraced more, isn't cost, but rather the fact that it is read/write/erasable...I think the studios would much prefer ROMs for a solid state distribution method.

[Whyzman]

The on-going developments in BluRay are certainly interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

[Mini-Me]

If you chop all the promos, warnings in 50 languages and other useless crap, you'll find that most dual-layer DVDs are slightly under 8 GBs in actual content.

Totally agree. All but the most-full DVD's would fit in 8GB...

I think one reason that Flash memroy isn't embraced more, isn't cost, but rather the fact that it is read/write/erasable...I think the studios would much prefer ROMs for a solid state distribution method.

=== SMALL TECHNICAL RANT ===
I'm just speaking my mind here, and I don't know how practical this really would be, but some ideas that come to mind with respect to solid-state movie or other media distribution would be:

If the USB-flash medium was write-protected in hardware within the device, a "Data-block" format could be developed which is not easily copied in home-computers, but can be accessed and played back with appropriate software. Data-block format might not be the right term, but what I mean is that the data for the media is stored in any one of many hundreds of different variations of different file-formats, the CORRECT format for access and playback being decided upon by the successful exchange of the playback key. There is two devices in one, essentially. The 1st device handles exchanging the key with the host player, and if sucessful, it then instructs the 2nd device(which handles access to the media) to start streaming the data in a specific format, to the host.

This would mean there is no ONE file-format standard as with DVD's at the moment. Looking at the data on a home-computer without the correct key, it would just look like a drive with an unknown file-system to Windoze, and Windoze(or MAC) would not be able to access it as it would be, for want of a better term, "Non-standard format".

If I was doing it, I would start with a connector similar to USB, but with extra contacts whose purpose is to exchange access keys with the host player. This would make the units very hard to copy as an access key is exchanged between media and player using electrical signals on the extra contacts. This would mean that it would be virtually impossible to "Hack" or otherwise defeat the protection in a standard computer, as the required physical connections for exchanging the access key are not present in a computer as standard. Essentially, this would render ALL computer-based software attempts to copy or play the media impossible without the extra connections and required key exchanges between device and media. With the device loaded with the media, the studio could then update a firmware which flatly refuses anything other then reading of the media(with the correct key exchange). This would allow the use of flash memory, but then, ROM chips might be cheaper even then flash-chips. Rental outlets could apply a time-limit to the playback, so that if customers "Forget" to return the media on time, the media would auto-re-lock and refuse to play anymore, say an hour or so after it was due to be returned to the rental outlet.(the media would need a RTC for this, but it would be cool for the rental outlets, considering how many of them have to continuously ring the customers to "Remind" them to return movies...)

You could even arrange for different protocols and/or baud-rates etc for playback depending on specific keys, making it even harder to read the device without the right key, as then not only would you need the right key, but the key would also determine the baud-rate, protocol(of which you could create hundreds) AND file-system-format with which the data is clocked out of the device for playing. This would prevent the typical "Brute-force" type of hit-and-miss attempts to beat decryption keys, and with no rock-solid base data-format or file-system, it would be extremely difficult to find the right one to make sense of the data without the correct key.

Rant, rant, rant...

I'm supposed to be on holiday - what is all this technical rambling...
:p

[Whyzman]

Holy Mackeral Mini, you keep running synaptic discharges like that and global warming could become a reality!! :D

[Mini-Me]

I'm only toying with the concept.
Would probably be to expensive to do, but given time.
Perhaps not practical also, to have so many different file-formats etc, but the movie industry are always looking for more copy-protection methods! :D

It's actually more of a brain-overflow rant then anything...
:p

[jlreich]

All that says to me is more DRM. We don't need any more of that. ;)

And as with any content control there is always a way around it.

Actually there are things in the works to allow you to download content on demand directly to a USB drive or MP4 player, or even smart phones. You will soon be able to walk into a store and do this. Will there be DRM involved? Absolutely.

[Fruss Tray Ted]

VHS format finally dies

My sentiments exactly

DRM?

That was never their forte' anyway

[Mini-Me]

All that says to me is more DRM. We don't need any more of that. ;)

And as with any content control there is always a way around it.


Good point :p

Yep, it took what - 4 days for CSS to be cracked by someone?
I think it was something like that, I know it did not take long anyway.
:D
There are some clever cookies out there, and no matter how much protection you employ, the clever cookies don't tend to take long cracking it.
(not that I am advocating copyright-cracking, kinda the opposite in fact!)

[Ajmukon]

i really do not think BD is going to die anytime soon...
In December 2008, Pioneer Corporation unveiled a 400 GB Blu-ray disc, which contains 16 data layers, 25 GB each, and will be compatible with current players after a firmware update. A planned launch is in the 2008-2010 time frame for ROM and 2010-2013 for rewritable discs. Ongoing development is under way to create a 1 TB Blu-ray disc as soon as 2013.[82]

at this rate, they will surpass hard disk drives... in terms of capacity..

[mjc]

So what if you can store half the Library of Congress on a single disk, if breathing on the dang thing causes it not to be readable any longer. Until they start putting out disks made of significantly more scratch resistant stuff storage capacity just doesn't matter.

[Mini-Me]

@ Ajmukon: Very impressive. I did not know they had managed to get capacities up that high with Blu-Ray. I knew of the 200GB Sony disc, but was unaware of this 400GB one...

@ mjc: 100% Agree. I've run some very basic tests on Blu-Ray for it's ability to handle marks etc, and was not impressed. Placing fingerprints in just four or five places on the disc renders playback jerky and essentially useless. With the disc cleaned, I then applied some tiny dots of ink from a very-fine black marker-pen, and this also prevents the disc from playing at all - as soon as the player runs into the "Dot" it totally locks the player and you have to cycle power to get the disc back. The exact same dot on a plain DVD produced a small skip or two, but playback was still possible. Essentially with Blu-Ray, that tiny 0.25mm dot will be blocking roughly 6 times the number of tracks as with a DVD, which explains a lot. As you say, you really can't breath near Blu-Ray discs or they will skip on playback. Blu-Ray is a great invention, but perhaps not really suitable for Joe-Blogs the consumer, as he tends to treat discs with no respect, and in doing so, will render them useless. Perhaps the players and the discs will improve with time.

[Whyzman]

When CDs first came onto the scene, didn't they have some sort of case around them and then the disk was extracted and replaced when done??

[Whyzman]

Oh, and the link I supplied above from Wikipedia also went on to say they are close to topping the 1Terabyte level.

[Mini-Me]

When CDs first came onto the scene, didn't they have some sort of case around them and then the disk was extracted and replaced when done??

I know that radio stations used to use "Cart" players for CD's, and the CD's were in cartridges - this was in early daze, so yes - you are correct.

[Rick]

When CDs first came onto the scene, didn't they have some sort of case around them and then the disk was extracted and replaced when done??


The Cartridge system was dependent on the drive manufacturer
Some had them others didn't

Another was the PD-MO drives
The PD a Phase-Change drive

http://www.pctechguide.com/36Storage_Phase-change_technology.htm
and Definition: Refers to the Phase-change Dual optical technology as implemented in Panasonic's patented PD system. Similar to phase-change WORM technology (as used in CD-R) this uses an active layer with reversible properties allowing data to be overwritten in a single pass of the read/write head. This compares with the two-pass operation of conventional MO devices.

more like a cd-rw in a plastic case with a slide window (3.5 floppy style ) But was dual sided

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=PD+disk&i=49019,00.asp

I still have one of these beasts and It Still Works :)
But disks are next to impossible to find any more

[Whyzman]

So, maybe there's the million dollar idea...A protective case to deter fingerprints, flair pens, and inadvertent scratches. I suspect that the manufacturers realized early on that protection resulted in slumping replacement sales...

[Rick]

Not the disk makers.

The player manufactures and
The film sellers. ( Sony first and foremost)
Oh Yah they own the patent on Blueray don't they
So they make out on both ends

Come to think of it that DVD juke box I was looking at was also a sony and VERY WELL Noted for damaging disks beyond use or repair

Sony DVPCX995V 400-Disc DVD Mega Changer/Player and the other models as well

[wombil]

I have some 78 rpm records that still play after thousands of uses and years of abuse .Are we really going forward?

[Whyzman]

Yeah, but wombil, we're talking there about vinyl disks that you could bolt onto your car for a temporary spare. The only way to make one of 'em "go flat" would be to slash just as you would a tire. CDs scratch if you even look at them wrongly. One day I saw a fly land on one that left skid marks...

[Rick]

I have some 78 rpm records that still play after thousands of uses and years of abuse .Are we really going forward?


I don't know about the 78s
But I still have my complete collection of LPs and am still doing what I have done for decades now

Record them onto the media of the day and put the LPs back into the sleaves to protect them

This has works through the reel2reel, 8 tracks to the cassette tapes into the metal tapes and now onto cd and dvd
I even have about half recorded to thumb drives and memory cards for use in whatever device I have available

But I have far more CD coasters than anything else

I did throw out the last of my betamax tapes last fall and a lot of the old VHS tapes this last summer
They do go bad from just normal use
But I was able to make digital copies before hand and burn them to Dvd while storing the original backup iso on external hard drives :)

[halovivek]

hi i do have some old films which are there in VHC any idea to convert it and keep it in DVD? i want to do myself not to go to shop pay and do it.

[karbon]

An industry mucky-muck said to the press that BlueRay will only last 3 years MAX. After that other things will become 'standard'.
I agree with that statement because there are lots of other things beat BR and much cheaper in the future. The Japanese are hard at work to break out the next big things in optical recording.

Soooo, the DVD and BR will be around but eventually be gone the same speed as VHS method of recording.
I still like tape in my camcorder and would not be interested the least with those 'card' recorders, or HD in the camcorder. There are soooo many problems with that, IE: where will you archive the video? I don't have to.... already on TAPE!
If you store it on HD, then one day all that will be gone and you no longer have those footage that you took 20 years ago. Who could keep that many HD units to store video.
Think about it, megabytes per seconds!
Besides, the HD and card recording is compressed so much that it blow out the details in black/white and solid colors.
(no details in shadows, just a mass of black, etc)

So, tapes will remain for a while.
It's cheap archive.