UPS and use of plug strips?

[TomPabst]

Hi....
My question is regarding UPS devices...and the use of powerstrips (or plug-bars as they are also called) with their own surge protection on them. Can I use a surge-protected powerstrip plugged into one of the outputs of the UPS device?

Background: I purchased a UPS (for the first time) tonight for my sim racing/beta testing computer workstation. I use all USB peripherals, including keyboard and mouse with four "game controllers"....requiring three USB hubs all with their own power tranformers. Add my monitor and CPU, that's 5 plug-in devices for these units alone (16 plugs total, including the sound system)! The UPS has 6 outputs, 3 "surge protection only" and 3 "battery back up with surge protection"....since I need the mouse, keyboard, monitor and CPU to all be on the battery backup....I'm short one plug (if I were to use the UPS outputs exclusively for these devices). Additionally, I've spent a great deal of time (about 20 hours) installing and wiring my system components (without a UPS device, unfortunately)...to the extent that I can remove any peripheral or "connection" patch from my system surgically...without disturbing any other wiring (even so much as clipping another's zip strap)....everything is independently mounted and secured. I mapped this out with some care, and I'll have to redo the whole thing if I can't use a strip plug in the UPS device. On the "Quick Setup Guide" at the front with all the warnings about *not taking a bath with your UPS device as your new "rubber ducky" while its plugged in*, and that sort of thing.....(..lol...too many warnings on these devices)....it says, "Using a surge-protected power strip on an output of this UPS may damage the UPS device." Or something along those lines. I wonder if the word "may" is very flexible? So, I thought I'd ask if you guys have any experience or knowledge that will help me determine if "may" is an important word.....or it's "ok" to use a surge-protected power strip (I don't own any non-surge protected power strips...seems like a dumb thing to buy actually). I don't know that the actual device name matters.....but just in case, the name of the UPS I purchased is: Tripp-lite's, OMNISMART 725, Line-Interactive UPS System (120v). I live in California...where "brown-outs" are becoming daily occurances....along with monthly electrical bills nearing 5 figures! A UPS device seems like a good idea......

Your case-hardend experience and knowledge is appreciated and I, Thank you, in advance for your response(s).....

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Tom Pabst
www.pabst-racing.com

[Reid]

I have been running powerstrips off my APC 300 since it only has two outlets on the back. I can't imagine how a surge-protected strip would be a problem, unless the Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) inside fail in a shorted condition, but newer strips should have a fuse that would open in that case. MOVs can fail open or shorted after numerous and long-duration overloads, according to this information (http://www.surgex.com/muncybody.html).

Making sure the total wattage is within the UPS capacity seems to me to be more important.

I'm not an electrical engineer, so check around for more advice.
http://home1.gte.net/reiddrum/aball5.gif

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reido@my-deja.com

[This message has been edited by Reid (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Paleo Pete]

I'll agree with the shifty eyed guy...

Nice gif...

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Soon as I come up with all the answers...they change the questions!!

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[xor_chad]

Hey
This is a warning concerning capacitive overload.
Plugging to many devices into the UPS can cause to hard a draw on the battery and permanently damage the unit.
This is not an issue when the UPS is operating on-line.

Generally when a company puts a warning out it is for good reason.
Usually because they have been sued for something related or are covering their butts from a possible lawsuit.

What they are saying here is that it must have a high risk of harm and
they dont want you to pull the 'ol "you never said..." on them.

I myself wouldnt do it. The whole purpose of the UPS is to protect your devices, why risk harming them now?
Laters...

PS
There is not any risk plugging the strip into the pass-thru outlets. You just wont get any juice on an outage.

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Chad Wilson
C++/ASM Programmer
PC Support Technician

[Reid]

Xor Chad, thanks for providing a key word, "capacitive". That led me to this APC (http://159.215.19.5/kbasewb2.nsf/For+External/CB30A4C4C6827E68852568E100561406?OpenDocument) link that warns: "Plugging a surge strip into the output of these UPSs could capacitively overload the UPS due to its Stepped Approximated output waveform on battery causing damage to the internal circuitry of these models."

PC Guide (http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/index.htm) also gave a warning.



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reido@my-deja.com

[TomPabst]

Guys...

Thanks to everyone replying to my original question. I tried using the powerstrips/surge protectors....and the "monitoring software" says, "low battery" and shuts my system down in 30 seconds. My guess....I can't use the ps/surge protectors (i.e., the "warning" is correct). I am going to call the company that makes the UPS device tomorrow...and see if they can tell me if a "power strip"...a non-surge protected one....can be used. I still have this problem of only three outlets on the UPS...and 5 devices needed battery backup and line cleaning. I will report their advice here tomorrow.

I wonder if any of you with more "electrical" knowledge than I can tell me if you think an "overload" condition would exist with a monitor, CPU and two USB power converters being plugged into the UPS device? The specs say the output capacity is 725VA and 450watts. It says a full-load battery runtime is 17 to 20 minutes (certainly long enough to save data and shut the system down...which is all I purchased this device to be capable of doing...along with cleaning the line juice coming from the power company). I have been trying to find the information on this site about what device....has "what power consumption"....and I don't know enough of the terminology (I think) to make a reasonably informed search even. The monitor is a big boy....21" KDS...and probably draws a lot more juice than a 17" or 19" even. The two USB converters can't draw much and the cpu power supply is an Antec 400 watt ATX-2.03(model PP43X) unit...very nice ps I might add...just purchased it a couple months back.

Thanks again for all of your "thoughts".....and I will report back tomorrow what the company techs say about this issue (so we can all learn a little something about UPS devices and powerstrips). And, thanks in advance to some who knows about the capacity loads of the devices I have plugged into the UPS device now.

I'm off to the "trouble shooting" forums....to find out how to fix another problem than has been "nagging" my system for a few weeks now: It won't shut off! .....lol....

Regards,

Tom



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Tom Pabst
www.pabst-racing.com

[Reid]

Did you have your UPS plugged in long enough to charge the batteries before connecting the output load? It may need 12 hours or longer.

I thought it would be easier to find typical power consumption of computer components, but no luck.

The monitor should indicate it on a nameplate, usually on the back. APC has an UPS selector (http://www.apcc.com/template/size/workstation/single/index.cfm) that can help you determine what size UPS is needed.

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reido@my-deja.com

[TomPabst]

Thanks Reid....

I did have it charged .....over night. But unplugged it for about 10 hours before installing it tonight. That shouldn't have caused the battery to run back down?

You have my sympathies on the "power consumption" info. I thought it would be easy stuff to find too. Maybe Charles needs to add this to the "PC Guide" site some where we can easily find it. I found the same problem with trying to determine how big of an operating power supply I should intall in my new computer...too! Geeeesh! This doesn't seem like it should be "rocket science formulas" type of info reserved only for the "geek fraternity" members...you know?

Thanks for the "heads up" on the APC info for selecting a UPS size and weight. I'll check it out pronto!

Regards,

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Tom Pabst
www.pabst-racing.com

[Reid]

I just ran one of my systems through the selector. It is a tower K6-III, 2 hard drives, and a 15" monitor, and selected 10 minutes run time. It says I should have a 500. I have a 300, which carries the load, but haven't felt like testing the run time.

If your UPS has a switch to turn it off, I don't think it should have run the battery down. You would probably have heard it buzz or beep if was running the converter while unplugged.

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reido@my-deja.com

[xor_chad]

Yo
Most all electrical devices are required to list thier ratings on the back.
If you see the Ampere rating, then you can derive the VA(volt/ampere) ratings since you know the voltage is 110-120 constant. If you push your 750va max, you will have little to no up-time. Tho usually a little harder, you can derive the wattage. Since wattage is measure of work, it may vary from time to time due to the work load. Just imagine the difference in watts if you turned your stereo from 1 to 10. Power consumption will change. You can get an average tho. Just use the VA ratings tho. Hope this was clear. Laters...

PS
I really suggest only plugging in the monitor and PC into the UPS. Since your devices are all USB you could hot-plug the Kbrd and Mouse directly in during a shutdown and by-pass the hub.

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Chad Wilson
C++/ASM Programmer
PC Support Technician

[kenja]

I fail to understand how the APC would have trouble handling the standard (inexpensive) surge protected expansion strips. Good point on capacitive (and I would add inductive) loads. I would not plug my TrippLite "Voltage Regulator and Conditioner" into my APC 420, but the UPS has been working fine for over three years with a garden variety surge strip connected to it.

The way I see it, more MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistors) are just extra insurance, and the capacitors in the typical EMI/RFI filter are of small (capacitive) value.

Slightly off topic: Don't forget phone line/ cable protection. Last month, lightning struck a chain-link fence across the street from me. My stuff came through unscathed, but my neighbor ended up buying a new computer. Evil electrons came in through the modem.


[This message has been edited by kenja (edited 12-21-2000).]

[TomPabst]

Thanks to everyone who has provided information and input.

Update: I wanted to report back to you after talking to the TrippLite tech support....and haven't accomplished that yet (on hold today...but had to take a series of phone calls....then ran out of time). In the meantime, I've plugged only the cpu and the monitor into the UPS (without use of a plug-strip)....and will wait to re-wire my system after talking to the tech support people about "plain" plug-strips or "surge protected" plug-strips....are they both discouraged?

By the way, I received a very nice email from Charles today, who runs this fine website. He mentioned "my famous name"....so I thought I should put any questions to rest with some of you who might be wondering (although I can't imagine my questions not giving it away....that I'm NOT the "Tom Pabst" of Tom's Hardware site fame....lol...)....I'm not! I am related to the brewing family however....but not part of the business.

Regards,

TP

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Tom Pabst
www.pabst-racing.com