PC needing a warm up

[real_ki]

Hello...
It's been a while since I had computer problems...
This is sort of similar to this thread (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=71793), but somewhat different, so adding a new thread here...

I recently bought an old/used PC (P4, 2.4GHz, 1GB RAM, on-board USB broken, an external USB2.0 (unkown brand with NEC chipset) is installed in PCI slot). It looked like it was working fine. At first I had Windows XP. Once I have it running, I can reboot, shutdown, then turn on again, and etc. and it's all fine. But if I leave it off for long time.. like turn it off, go to bed, wake up in the morning and turn it back on, it restarts in the middle of loading XP, then it goes though disk check, and if that's complete, then XP is up OK. I did have other issues with firewall software, so this is running base XP without firewall, but wireless NIC is enabled. I thought maybe there was some driver problem with XP and my hardware, so I installed Windows 2000. I am seeing basically the same problem. After installing Win2K, I was able to reboot, turn off, turn back on, and do stuff fine.. then next morning I turn the computer back on, it reboots once, goes through disk check, then loads OK.

I know it's stupid, but I thought maybe something needs to be warmed up, so I made it so that it always boots to DOS part of Windows 98 first. I then run chkdsk provided by Win98, then reboot to Win2K. Well, it doesn't reboot, but it still does disk check even if things were shutdown properly before. (but then maybe things aren't shutting down properly and Win2K was just hiding it from me).

Everything looks fine after I go through this reboot and disk checking once. Which sort of makes me think that computer itself probably is OK. Or is that a bad assumption?

What might be causing this? And how can I findout what migiht be causing this reboot?

Do you know of any good and free or trial software that would check for motherboard, RAM, video card, and hard drives? I used to have a software called CheckIt maybe 10 years ago which check my old 386/486 fine, but not sure how accurately it will be able to check the P4 boards and etc..

What can I check in Win2K that might give some clue and if there's anything that I need to set to provide such log or trace, please tell me what I need to set.

I look forward to all the expert comments. Thanks!

[Sylvander]

If at first you don't succeed....
Give up and try something different.

1. Puppy Linux 4.3.1 ISO file (ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/puppylinux/puppy-4.3.1/pup-431.iso)
md5sum = 561c83156b4dae5da0b6135b53d8c421 for pup-431.iso
If the Puppy loaded [it runs totally in RAM, doesn't use the HDD] using this "live" CD works fine on your hardware, then there's nothing wrong with your BIOS or its configurations, or your hardware [HDD not included].

2.
(a) You'll then be up and running with a reliable OS [easy to connect to the web] that has practically zero probability of being infected or hacked [and NO BSOD's].
Includes its own firewall that takes about 5 seconds to install/run.
I have Win2000Pro, but use various [normally 3] Puppies almost exclusively.
They are all FREE and can fix/backup/restore each other and Windows.

(b) Puppy can be run using: a live optical disk with a pupsave file in any accessible storage [best or easiest]; a conventional HDD install [fastest method if you have only 128MB RAM or less]; USB Flash Drive or SD memory card in a USB reader.

(c) You can run various programs within the Puppy environment to check various aspects of the health of your PC.
I find the various Puppies [Linux] seldom go wrong, and are easy/quick to fix/replace.
e.g.
(d) GParted can repartition and format your HDD, and/or scan/fix the partition file systems.

(e) You could install the FREE [for personal use] Avast antivirus on-demand scanner and use that to scan [the Windows partition?] for infection.

(f) GSmartControl can test your HDD health.

(g) Start here at the end of this thread and work backward to see various Puppy Linux goodies. (http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=66929&page=8)

[real_ki]

I'll give puppy a try.. I haven't tried using these "live" CDs, but hopefully it's simple as burning the ISO to a CD.

I did run virus program (AVG-Free) which seem to be fairly reliable and did not find any infections.

If I do a regular format (not a quick format), wouldn't that tell me if there's a problem with my drive sector and etc?

Anyway, I will try those GParted and GSmartControl and see if they find any problems, and of course the Puppy...

Thanks for the suggestions.

[mjc]

Change the CMOS battery...one of the first things to do on a PC of unknown age/usage.

[real_ki]

How could CMOS battery cause problem? This suggestion is bit out of my head... Power is on, so while power is on, the battery shouldn't matter if it's out or not, shouldn't it? If your concern is the CMOS Setup not keeping the configuration and resetting to default and perhaps causing the problem, I can see the changes I've set are kept. Maybe you can explain bit more on your suggestion and tell me why this might help...

Anyway... I tried the Puppy Live CD. However, I kept getting error message after a couple of steps are done (after copying or loading sfc file to RAM). I keep getting "Performing a 'switch_root' to the layered filesystem. Kernel Panic - not syncing: attempted to kill init!" message. The DVD-ROM drive I have is mostly reliable, but not 100%, so maybe that might be the problem.. I used the same CD on my laptop and it loaded fine. I tried it a few times on this desktop that I am having issues with and I hit the error at the same spot every time.

I was able to run the "Parted Magic" live CD and get to its Linux and run some tests there. Hopefully being able to load this version of Linux covers for running the Puppy Linux. I have 40GB Maxtor(I don't like this brand, but that's what came with PC) which I use for main C and D drive, and I have 1.6GB Western Digital, and 500MB (I forget the brand). Anyway, I was only able to test the 40GB HDD because the other two didn't support SMART. Since I have everything running off of the 40GB HDD anyway, that should have been enough HDD test.. I ran the extensive test and it passed.

I've always wondered about this external USB2.0 PCI card, like what brand it is and is it reliable. I think the previous owner just bought something cheapest to make it work to sell the computer. I took it out and looked like my computer booted OK this time. I am going to have to try for a few days to know if this USB2.0 PCI card was causing the problem, but so far it seems to be.

I was hoping maybe you can identify for me what brand and model this card might be. I see sticker on the card: FG-U2N101-4E1I-L2-01-IT01 and on the main chip it has: NEC D720101GJ.
I searched and I couldn't find exact one, but I found SD-U2N101-4E1I which is made by Syba (one of the brands that I don't trust).
If I were to purchase a new external USB2.0 PCI card, which chipset and which brand would you recommend? (nothing too expensive). I was just looking at Rosewill brand from Newegg. If this NEC chipset is giving trouble, would another brand using NEC chipset would probably cause problem as well?

[mjc]

Yes, the settings not being kept was the main concern...but not the only one. Many times, when the battery is low, strange things will occur, not just loss of settings. The battery keeps both the settings and the clock and sometimes other information (like detected drives) 'fresh'. Often, the 'soft' information like the detected drives and current time is the first to go when the battery gets low.

Batteries are cheap...probably one of the cheapest things to replace, so I do it as a matter of course on an older machine...3 yrs is more than long enough for a battery.

Another possible cause, especially with the errors from Puppy, is that there is a timing issue...possibly the PCI bus, maybe the IDE bus...

Back to the machine itself...what happened to the onboard USB?

That may give some more clues.

Another thing...give the motherboard a good look over for bulging/leaking capacitors.

[real_ki]

mjc,
I purchased a used PC and I don't know what happened to the onboard USB. The lady doesn't know either. Win2K and WinXP recognizes it, but when I plugin USB mouse or USB flash drive, it wouldn't pick up or the device manager shows a red X on the USB controller.

The chances of the processor being bad or a processor gone bad is very slim, isn't it? I was thinking if the external USB card is really causing the problem or maybe the mobo is, then I was thinking about replacing the motherboard with something fairly decent (I see one that I like from eBay for little over $30 including shipping). This will let me boot to USB devices, and don't have to worry about external USB card, give me option to upgrade upto fastest P4(single core), and can install more RAM - not a bad deal for about $30 bucks.

I would get it right now if I know for sure that my mobo is the problem and this new mobo would fix the problem.. but bit hesitating until I am more certain about what the problem might be...

I just hope the computer behaves better with external USB card taken out.

[mjc]

Does the BIOS recognize the onboard USB?

What are the options in the BIOS setup for USB?

[Whyzman]

I would suggest also running the Harddrive diagnostics. If you haven't done so before, they can be downloaded from the harddrive manufacturer's website. Strange oddities can also be occurring if the harddrive is going south...

Perhaps the Live CDs take the harddrive out of the question...but I guess I would run it just the same.

[Sylvander]

1. "Kernel Panic - not syncing: attempted to kill init!"
I think this does NOT indicate there is a problem with your PC's hardware.
I think this is a problem that people get rather infrequently if/when their hardware is unsuited to the kernel version of the particular Puppy.
I see you are using older hardware and this Puppy's kernel is very new, so there's probably the cause.
Thing to do is [do as I do and] use [a Puppy built on] an older kernel version as follows below.

2. The following Puppy was built by ttuuxxx upon the recent release by Barry Kauler of his new version 4.3.0 with the older kernel [version 2.6.25.16 I think].
ttuuxxx made some improvements/tweaks [e.g. default web-browser = Firefox 3.5.3].
Here's the Puppy 431.1 ISO file (http://www.puppylinux.asia/tpp/ttuuxxx/puppies430/puppies-431.1.iso).
Username: puppy
Password: linux
You'll need to type these twice.
Here's the thread where the above link was supplied. (http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=46727)

I expect the above Puppy will boot OK on your PC. :)
Sorry about my mistake in offering the unsuitable 1st Puppy. :(

[real_ki]

mjc,
Yes, I can enable and disable the onboard USB from CMOS setup menu if that's what you mean by "does bios recognized onboard USB" question.. It's recognized by both BIOS and Windows OS, but it just doesn't recognize the device when i plug something in for the onboard. So, currently I just have it disabled and took out the external card, so right now I don't have any USB enabled.

Whyzman,
I've ran the GSmartControl that Sylvander mentioned. I have not tried any testing by the Maxtor's software.

Sylvander,
I'll give another shot with this version of Puppy.


Some new info...
After taking the external USB card out, I saw one error dialog something with winlogon.exe and it rebooted. It was first time I've noticed this and haven't seen it again. This doesn't seem related to my problems though..

This morning, I turned it on and I hit KMODE_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED blue screen and had to manually reboot and everything was OK. Looks like it has something to do with malware and I couldn't boot to my DOS part of Win98. Not sure if it's because of this error or something else, but anyway, I restored with last good image and everything is back to usual now.

So far, taking external USB2 is causing my PC to behave slightly different, but still not very stable at first boot.

Maybe I should have mentioned this before, but my mobo is ECS P4VXASD2+.
It does have two bios updates. One with some timing adjustment for stability (an older version), and a later version with some auto-turn on/off issue. My mobo bios matched the latest bios date, but just in case today I flashed with older bios update first, then the latest.. (latest should contain fix for older version, but just in case this bios upgrade is just patching a part, I installed both starting old to new). I am thinking maybe I should try with older bios and see if that changes anything since that's suppose to fix some timing issues (since it was mentioned before by mjc) and in case the new bios added some new bug.

Just in case it's some HDD related, I am also considering to install Win2K on my trustful 1.6GB WD hdd and see how it goes... just a thought...

[Whyzman]

I've had a number of Maxtor drives fizzle on me. I would again suggest running their HDD diagnostics just to rule out the possibility.

[real_ki]

I ran the SeaTools hdd diagnostics and it passed.

The later version of Puppy ran OK and I was able to connect to Internet and etc.

hmm.. so what might be the problem... motherboard???

[Whyzman]

As mjc mentioned earlier in the thread...check the capacitors for bulging or leaking.

[mjc]

I'm leaning toward a bad capacitor...

[Whyzman]

Could be part of the genre of questionable boards: http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25482

[mjc]

Another possibility...but still sticking with physical fault on the motherboard, is a 'cold' solder joint. The joint was moved a little, had an impurity/moisture trapped in it, etc and when the motherboard is cold, there is now intermittent contact, but once a little heat gets to it, it expands and good contact is achieved.

But I've seen bad capacitors behave this way, too...once they 'warm up' they are in 'tolerance', but when 'cold' they aren't. And yes, this board is toward the end of the 'bad cap' era (mid to late PIII to early/mid P4 boards)...which is why I'm leaning that way. My guess, is one of the three in a line by the memory slots or one of the five near the southbridge chip (the large chip in the lower right (if the processor is the top) of the board).

[Sylvander]

1. "so what might be the problem... motherboard?"
With the exception perhaps of the HDD, I don't see how it can be a hardware problem if a Puppy runs just fine with no sign of any problem.
I vote for a software problem...
Possibly file system or file corruption, or infection as below.

2. "this is running base XP without firewall, but wireless NIC is enabled"
So you were online without a firewall?!
Did you perhaps get hacked and infected?
The Puppy won't be infected [or affected by any infection of Windows], hence no sign of of any problem due to possible Windows infection.

3. "After installing Win2K, I was able to reboot, turn off, turn back on, and do stuff fine.. then next morning I turn the computer back on, it reboots once, goes through disk check, then loads OK"
Possibly infection not eliminated by [re-formatting the partition and] installing Win2k?
Perhaps you should zero-fill the HDD prior to re-partitioning, then re-formatting those partitions, then re-install Windows again.
Unless you'd rather have a go at fixing the problem with your present Windows.
There's no rush to find a fix; you can run Puppy while you do that.

4. "I then run chkdsk provided by Win98, then reboot to Win2K"
You can scan/fix the Windows partition file system using:
"Puppy-menu->System->GParted->choose-the-HDD->highlight-the-partition->partition->Check->Apply"
This will scan and fix your Windows partition file system without using [a possibly faulty] Windows OS to do the job.

5. Would you like to install the [FREE for personal use] Avast Anti-virus on-demand scanner within your Puppy and scan the [dormant] Windows partition using that?
I can give links and instructions.

6. Did you make a pupsave file?
If so, where did you save it? [Not on your Windows partition I hope. Best not on the (suspect?) internal HDD]
What size did you make it? [1 GB is good]
Did you encrypt it? [I wouldn't bother doing that]

[mjc]

The machine seems to work, once it has 'warmed up'...in other words, from a cold boot it's not working...any time it sits for long enough to cool down completely it won't work. That, says to me, HARDWARE...probably capacitor or cold solder joint. And it seems the problem component is either on the PCI bus or the IDE bus...because there seems to be some sort of disk corruption occurring (or at least the disk being flagged as 'dirty'). If the problem is on the IDE bus, there is a chance that it won't show with a LiveCD...because there is no corruption, so the linux boot could possibly just wait out the problem.

Also, coupled with the fact that there is a known hardware problem...even though the USB is recognized, devices aren't being powered...the 'data' lines are good, but power isn't...again another problem that can be caused by a cold solder joint/bad capacitor.

[real_ki]

I've also noticed today that doing a cold boot maybe 30 minutes or so after the last shutdown shows Win2K to pop some message saying that one of the .exe files that Windows uses like services.exe was unexpectedly terminated so windows will shutdown after 50 or so seconds. Then it reboots and everything is fine...

From all of your comments and from what I've seen, I am leaning towards:
1. bad capacitor or bad board with moisture problem
2. some sort of virus infection

I just wiped off my hard drive and reinstalled Win2K on C: and E: drive where C: is the Maxtor and E: is the WD drive. I've just customized the basic environments, installed drivers Win2K needed (except for the Wireless NIC). Since this PC is not connected to wired NIC I installed wired NIC driver.
So, there should be no virus infection since I am not connected to the net, there should hopefully be no software conflicts as I only installed video, sound, and wired NIC driver and that's all I installed (no Windows update stuff yet). External USB 2.0 is out as well.

I am going to test in this environment and if it still cause the problem, it must be the hardware (mobo) problem. If it's OK, then I'll installed the wireless NIC driver (no firewall software or anti-virus software) and see how it behaves the day after. If I see the problem, it must be the wireless NIC or some virus.

I'm leaning more toward the hardware because I've gone through this process with my other PCs and never really had virus problem that would cause such a problem like this...

I'll get back with the update tomorrow.. Thanks for all your inputs/comments/ideas.

[real_ki]

I'm 99% on bad board.
I woke up and turned it on and loaded Win2K from C(Maxtor) drive.
I hit a blue screen with some win2k sys file having problem.
I reboot to Win2K from E(WD) drive, of course the drive was marked dirty already so it does disk check then brought up OK.

After at least 3 hours later, I came back home for lunch and booted to Win2K on E(WD) drive. While loading Win2K, system rebooted.

And all this is without connection to the network.
I think this is a good enough test to say that the motherboard is bad...
I guess this is what I get for trying to get a decent used PC for $50!
If the motherboard that I am about to purchase for little over $30 works well, then I guess it's still not a bad deal for this PC for total of around $80.

This is probably not the place to ask such question like below, but if I may...
If you were buying a motherboard (MSI 865PE Neo2-V) from places like eBay, which one would you buy?
1. a new one (no way to verify that it's not defective, and I probably can't get manufacturer's warranty on it if it were bad since it was manufactured at least several year ago)
2. a used one which the seller claims that it was professionally tested and is working

[real_ki]

I've searched around my old floppies and finally found one of the hardware diagnostic softwares that I've used long long ago... Norton Diagnostics v7.0 from 1993. And what do you know... when I ran the System Board test, for the Interrupt Controller test, I see "IRQ Not Received from: Timer" error.
Does this problem match with what I was seeing?
I wish I could find the CheckIt for DOS that I used to have which I think did better and more testing than this Norton's.

[real_ki]

OK. The timer error that showed by Norton Diagnostics doesn't seem reliable. It seems to show that error on all recent systems for some reasons..

Anyway, I finally got my motherboard and got everything all set up and everything looks good now. So my problem was definitely with the motherboard.

Thanks for all your comments/suggestions/helps.