"Linking" two puters

[kayofcircles]

My husband manages a small business. We recently bought a new puter with ME and installed a new program for the business. We are hoping to link the old puter with the new one so that while the secretary is posting things into new puter, old puter can be accessed for customer info. We thought maybe we could try transferring info via the parallel ports (as I saw in a post here), but that's not going to work for the actual business program, right? And do we have a problem with the fact that the old puter is running 98?
It is a small office, but the two puters are in different rooms, and the business doesn't have Net access.
Any suggestions? Is what we hope to do even possible?

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Randy_tx]

Sure!...you can connect the two together by adding Network Interface Cards to both computers and using the free Networking software contained in Win98 & Me.........you will need two NIC's and the proper cable between the puters.....directions are included in Me for how to do it.

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Will XP save Me ?

[kayofcircles]

Thanks, Randy. At least we know it is possible. The only thing that might prove difficult is installing a network card on that old puter. We think the new puter has one already.



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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[tjaymadison]

Sorry, Kay, a little dense here today. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Not sure just NIC's will do everything you want or not, depending.

If you'll be wanting to access the most current info,
while that same program or file is in use at the other
computer, I don't think just NIC's and cables will do all that.

That becomes a client-server relationship, and I think that's
beyond the scope of what's included 'free' with Windows98 or ME.

You may need Win2000 if that is in fact what you want to do.
Or maybe more sophisticated hardware like switches and/or routers.

I may be all wet on this, but get lots of info before you jump in.
First determine everything you want the systems to be able to do.



------------------
"I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage, mathematician, computer pioneer, analytical engine designer (1791-1871)
-- (Question: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?')

[bassman]

Hello Kay,
I have followed your posts for some time now and I just want to say, "I think its great that you are putting this much effort into learning." You have touched on a lot of different areas and you are doing it with a great attitude.
As for this question, Randy's suggestion is the best way to go, especialy if these machines will stay in this configuration for some time. To check your machine for a NIC, you can A)look in motherboard manual, B)look in Device Manager>network adapters>anything network connection, C)look on back of computer for a larger than normal phone type connection (RJ45).
Best bet is manual as this will give you the specs of what you have. You will need this info when you go to buy a NIC for the other machine.
Hopefuly you still have one PCI slot available.
Have fun

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They say to eat before you go to the grocery store so you don't buy so much. That doesn't work at the liquor store does it!

[Ghost_Hacker]

Just to clear up what Tjay said. If you want to share files and printers than a "peer to peer" setup like the one suggested by Randy will work. ( by the way 2 NICs will work as long as you have a cross over cable. Otherwise you'll need a hub and 2 NICs.)


If you want to share "programs" then the program must be "network" aware.( IE: can support files being opened by more than one user, can "map" data or program DLLs to another computer's hard drive.) Most network programs will only install on "Server" software like Windows NT or Windows 2000 Server.


Hope this helps http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 05-21-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

Well, the truth is that I yearn to copy new program and its contents to a second puter...being able to access info on the second puter would be nice though. I was the one who had to type in over 1700 names, addresses, etc into new program. (Is there an icon for "moaning in remembered pain"?)

Thinking now, from what you have all said, that it may not be really feasible. My better half is going to look into innards of old puter, but it is very "old" by puter standards and beginning to doubt if we'll be able to find a NIC that will work on it.

TJay: Would be trying to access the same program at the same time. Doubt if old puter would run 2000, but more importantly, probably wouldn't be able to get owners to spring for 2000. We were down on knees begging for new business program and newer puter. Think old puter has a 60 Mhz chip in it which isn't gonna support 2000 anyway, right?

Thank you, bassman, for your kind words. I find all this fascinating, and you guys have already taught me so much (which I have passed on to my husband, so we're both grateful to you all) and we look forward to learning more.

Ghost_Hacker: Where is Unimatrix Zero One? Driving me nuts trying to remember where I saw/read that. We love sci fi.

To summarize: We should be able to get the program and current contents to old puter using NIC cards, but without a program that is network aware and a OS like 2000 will not be able to "share" program simultaneously on two puters. Right? Am I wrong in my understanding? Using the NIC, we're just accessing the program from the new puter..or will we be able to transfer the program with its files (at that point) to the older puter so that it could be used to access info like the customer's phone number or something that isn't constantly changing?

------------------
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Ghost_Hacker]

Unimatrix Zero One is the HQ of the Borg and home of the Borg Queen. It was first seen on Star Trek: Voyager. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

You should be able to share data, so that you can install a program on 2 computers but have them access the same data. (Depending on the program you proably won't be able to open the same data file at the same time on both computers). Also ,depending on the program, you may be able to change some INI files so that you can install the program on one computer and still run it across the network on another. ( I've done this with Photoshop. However the startup isn't always smooth and you sometimes have to redo the INI settings. It just ain't pretty http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif )


So to make a long story short. You might be able to hack some INI files (easy) or register settings (hard) to force a program to become "network" aware. Just don't expect it to work smoothly http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Your best bet is to use programs that are designed to be ran across a network and will install on Win9X computers. Programs of this type will allow the same data file to be opened by 2 or more users simultaneously, but the program itself is still installed locally on each computer.


Hope this helps http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[kayofcircles]

Thanks, Ghost, I understand and will comply. I told my husband that it was a Borg thing, but we were thinking a movie...like one of the Next Generation ones...rather than Voyager. Wail..what are us Trekkies supposed to do with no series? Already beginning withdrawal symptoms.

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Jimbo3]

kayofcircles:
Didn't you know? There will be a new series from the Star Trek people this fall called "Enterprise" It is a 'prequel', taking place only 100 years from now. It will star Scott Bakula who starred in "Quantum Leap". Also they are now filming Star Trek X, due to be out sometime next year. That should satisfy us Trekkers for a while.




Originally posted by kayofcircles:
Thanks, Ghost, I understand and will comply. I told my husband that it was a Borg thing, but we were thinking a movie...like one of the Next Generation ones...rather than Voyager. Wail..what are us Trekkies supposed to do with no series? Already beginning withdrawal symptoms.





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Jim from Troy, Il, USA

[Ghost_Hacker]

What am I going to..to...to.. do without my weekly Trek fix..........No Trek....No Trek...NO TREK.....AGHHHHHHH......I ain't....going to make it man.....I AIN'T GOING TO MAKE IT........

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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[bassman]

HEY,I thought this place was for Techies, not Trekkies! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
As for the Tech issue at hand,GH I am not sure what you mean by "network aware". I have not heard this term before. Kay, if you have the program you are wanting to use, on disk, then I would highly recommend installing it on both machines. Then all you do is right click on any folder or document you want to access from the other computer, select "sharing" and select whatever perameters you want in the properties dialog box that comes up. This can be done with 9x machines or in combination with NT/2000 machines functioning as Nodes or Servers.
If you are using 98 or ME, you should have an information service that is part of the OS, and will answer a lot of Q's about home networking.
The "crossover cable" part of this is very important here. Be sure you specify that and maybe even explain to the salesperson that you will be going from NIC to NIC. Ready made cables run about a buck a foot, a cheap hub will cost in the $50 range and you will still need the same amount of cable.
The old computer will work fine in this setup if you use it like a work station and put all the main info on the new one. It then acts like a second HDD for the old one. But you might consider an upgrade in order
Have you read the post about how to calculate when it's time for an upgrade? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
Ghost: If I am uninformed about Network aware, please let me know as I would greatly appriciate any knowledge I can get. Thanks
Have a great day all http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif

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They say to eat before you go to the grocery store so you don't buy so much. That doesn't work at the liquor store does it!

[Ghost_Hacker]

OK first you are thinking of programs that share data. IE: the program is install on both computers but they "share" their data files across the network. With programs of this nature the last person to write or save the file will be the one who's updates take. Other users will have no idea that anyone else is looking at the same file at the same time Also all startup DLLs are located on the local computer. Each program knows only about itself. It's enviroment is local to the computer it's running on


A 'network aware' program has a 'client' install and a 'server' install. Most of the DLLs and other startup files are located on the 'server' computer. The 'client' install knows via ini files or the register that it's startup files are located on another computer.It's enviroment is the network it's attach to Also a program of this type will allow more than one user to open a file at the same time. Users are made aware that they have the file open in 'read only' mode because another user opened the file first and has a lock on it.

Again it depends on the program as to how it works in a network enviroment. Some programs can be hacked into being a 'client'to another installs 'server', but this doesn't always work. Some programs can still be aware of the network but have all their startup files locally installed.
The one thing all 'network aware' programs have in common is that they are multi-user programs.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 05-23-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

Jimbo3: Thank you! I didn't know...whew. But gotta agree with Ghost, can we make it that long?????

bassman: Therein lies the rub. My husband selected a program specific to the business. They informed us that they had to be linked in..with PC Anywhere (think that is what that is called) to install. I watched the installation and tried to keep up on what guy was doing on other end of phone line...but isn't an "install" feature on the CD we have. Plus, every time problems have arisen, the tech on the other end has done some fancy "changes" and bug fixes. Bottom line: can't install on old puter.
Second problem is that all the files are contained within the program.. almost impossible to find, much less backup separately.

They say that "ignorance is bliss", but that doesn't apply to programs. We screwed up and are paying the price. I went ballistic after getting all the customer data into the new program, and then the program tech casually mentions, "Oh, we never found the bug that causes the program to add ten years of interest to everyone's account when you use it to bill the first time." That's not a "bug" in my book..what was that old movie with the GIANT spider?

My beloved was all excited this morning after reading through 98's help files on BackUp..thought that would work. Hated to rain on his enthusiasm, but we looked for that backup in ME and it wasn't there..plus other problems would arise...sigh.

Total agreement, bassman, on the need for another newer system. Thanks to all for input/answers.

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Ghost_Hacker]

Kay I forget the name of that Giant Spider movie but it was Clint Eastwoods First. ( He played the jet fighter pilot that destroys the Spider in the end.) Yeah...yeah.... I know Bassman this is a Tech only forum... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif Oh...and by the way.. that term "network aware" was one I (we) used in a Tech support job I once had.(we supported a school database program).

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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 05-23-2001).]

[tjaymadison]

Ghost

So for not being that 'network aware' myself, http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
I wasn't too far off base way back on my first reply?
In a rudimentary sort of way, anyway?

I've heard that term before, along with 'network compliant'
used fairly frequently to describe this environment, I think.

Can any of this awareness/compliance 'stuff' be accomplished with hardware,
like switches, routers, etc., rather than changes to the program itself?

Kay

Is this a custom-modified program, written just for this
business? It may be compiled dBase or something.

Or is it so-called 'vertical market' software', available
over-the counter? Has it been around a long time?

Just trying to find out what other options you may have.


------------------
"I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage, mathematician, computer pioneer, analytical engine designer (1791-1871)
-- (Question: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?')

"Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand."
-- Homer Simpson

[Ghost_Hacker]

TJ No not really...network hardware like routers and switches work at the lower layers of the OSI model. The OSI model governs how network hardware/software works. The model looks like this:

Application layer
Presentation layer
Session layer
Transport layer
Network layer
Data link layer
Physical layer


User applications work at the Higher levels of the model they know only about data streams.

Network hardware like switches or routers work at the lower levels. They know only about datagrams,packets, and bits. As information moves from one computer to another on a network. The 'data' moves down the OSI 'stack' on one machine and up the OSI 'stack' of another. Since network hardware devices know nothing of 'data streams' they can't change how a program works.

Hope this helps explain it. There's a lot more to it then this but this is as easy to understand as I can make it with out typing a 500 word article. I'll leave that to Bunk or Charles http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 05-23-2001).]

[yawningdog]

You sure about that Clint Eastwood thing GH? He was also in Creature From The Black Lagoon- played an extra guy in a lab coat.

Seemingly insignificant info maybe, but my local network guru says always buy the same make and model NIC for all nodes and you avoid a lot of headaches.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler.

[Paleo Pete]

You might consider using NT 4 instead of win2000, system requirements are lots lower, it will run on a 486, so it should run on the P-60...and act as a file server, application server (that's the one you're after), firewall, router and more...

Very funny Scotty, now beam down my pants...

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So many idiots, and only six bullets...
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.geocities.com/paleopete/)

[tjaymadison]

Ghost -- Thanks for making me more 'aware'. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

That's enough for me to digest for the next week or so.
'Preciate it. Thanks for taking the time.


------------------
"I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage, mathematician, computer pioneer, analytical engine designer (1791-1871)
-- (Question: 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?')

"Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand."
-- Homer Simpson

[kayofcircles]

Honestly, TJay, I don't know the answer to your question. It isn't a application available "over the counter" like say Peachtree, but is available for all businesses in same field of service.

Ghost: Maybe Tarantula? Have to find a copy and watch for Eastwood.

Paleo Pete: Thank you, sir, but the new puter we bought has ME and only a restore disk. My current understanding is that we cannot change the OS (based on what I have read here in the forum about the new puters). Am I wrong about that? As I said above, we had to beg to get a newer puter and program, and it is only because the old DOS program was crashing every 20th of the month that we wheedled enough money out of owners to buy EMachine. We were scrambling to get data into new puter and new program before the next 20th rolled around.

Thanks again to you all. Think now this may fall into the "cannot be done with current money/software/hardware" catagory, but we've learned some things again so that we will make better, more informed, choices in the future.

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Ghost_Hacker]

WARNING TOTAL OFF TOPIC POST FOLLOWS

Kay :Yes I think that's it. That movie came out about the same time as "Them" and that Giant mantis movie which I think was called "It". Anyway the 3 of them make up the best "big bug" movies IMHO. Clint doesn't show up till the last 3 or 4 mins. of the movie and he has an airmask and helmet on. But if you listen closly and can remember what he looked like during "Rawhide" you'll have no problem spotting him.


yawningdog: I'll have to watch "Creature From The Black Lagoon" again. Never knew he was in it. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif



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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[bassman]

Wait Kay,
I would hope that one thing you would learn from us is to not give up so easily. Or is there more to this program you have then we know. A program without an install/setup.exe????Hmmm. And one that adds 10 years to account info? Your right, thats not a bug, thats a refund! I would hope that since this is a "business"program that it would be network aware and usable in a "business" environment. It should also have support and assistance that a typical business app. would have. Sorry, not trying to make you feel worse about your choice, just think that you may not be "pushing the right buttons" with these people.
GH nice work on explaining the OSI model, that should keep a few of us busy for a while http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif
I still think we can make this work for you Kay, but a little more info might help. Check to see if this program can function over a network. PC Anywhere is a program that allows you to access your network from a remote location, a service that is already available in windows. "Virtual Private Network." I believe the benefits of PC Anywhere are the ease of configuration and dial-in options.
How about more info on the 98 machine. Does it meet system requirements for this program?
Not giving up yet, no smoke/no fear! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif

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They say to eat before you go to the grocery store so you don't buy so much. That doesn't work at the liquor store does it!

[kayofcircles]

bassman: pretty sure old puter does meet minimum requirements. Did pay new program people another $400 for extended service (1 year) and an update that we still have not received...been 3 months. Their original support/service covered the first 90 days which they started "counting" three weeks before helping us install the program. So is abundantly clear that we screwed up on that choice.

Husband's been real busy lately, and hasn't had time to check on innards of old puter, but I will post when we have more info. Thanks.

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Ghost_Hacker]

Tjay : Just reread this thread and noticed that I didn't really answer all your questions. So.....

'Client/server' is the techie term for network programs. 'Network aware' is a non-techie way of explaining nework programs to folks who may not even know what a server is http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif There are 3 parts to a 'client/server' system.


Presentation includes the presenting of data and the application to users.

Business logic includes the application and business rules.

Data includes database definition and integrity checking.


Where these three parts reside determines what type of client/server system your running.

2-tier Intelligent server is when the presentation software is running on the client. And the business logic and data are on the server.

2-tier Intelligent client is when the presentation and business logic are on the client and the data is on the server.

N-tier is when the presentation software is on the client. Business logic is on one server and data is on a second server.

Internet is when there is a browser on the client computer. Presentation and business logic are on one server, data is on another.


Hope this answers your qestion. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif



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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[mjc]

GH I like to do a "mind meld" for your networking info...I guess that it would be networking two brains you=server me=client?

Kay yes you can change the OS if you have the installation disks, usually would involve a reformat and clean install with the new OS (easiest as far as getting a good install). These restore disks make it difficult to setup multiple partions, one method for doing a multiple partition is to get a larger hd and partion it with one as the size of the original hd or just install the second hd as slave to the original and then you can dual boot (but why? ME/NT dual boot?).

As long as you don't go changing the MOBO or the BIOS (from someone other than eMachines in this case - not likely to find one anyway), and remove hardware that was added after you bought the machine you can always use the "restore disk" to return to the original configuration. The one big thing when changing the OS on a machine like this is that the manufacturer won't "support" the change - if something goes bad then you are on your own, but you are probably past eMachines free period any way (90 days I think and then the rest of a 1 year if there actually is a problem, but $35 to find out if it is a hardware problem followed by a refund if the there is a problem.)

OT: A good place to look up movie and actor info:IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/) listing for Clint:Clint Eastwood (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Eastwood,+Clint) bottom Revenge of the Creature, Tarantula both 1955.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[kayofcircles]

mjc: We are getting really good in the Hindsight dept. My husband asked about changing the OS since we hadn't heard good things about ME, but the tech at Circuit City implied that it was beyond our abilities to do so. We got ONE CD..the Restore one..and a "flyer" sort of manual. Husband did buy 4 year service plan at Circuit City because of what we read about "returning" EMachine for repair....to like where?..the moon?

Another "live and learn" is that we are worried about heat. EMachine has only two fans..ps and cpu..and it's getting warmer outside. Husband found cool dual fan combo gizmo at Best Buy. Installed on EMachine. Entire desk that puter resides on vibrating! Uninstall fan gizmo...sigh.

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[Reid]

Originally posted by kayofcircles:
Husband found cool dual fan combo gizmo at Best Buy. Installed on EMachine. Entire desk that puter resides on vibrating! Uninstall fan gizmo...sigh.


I bought a slot fan at BestBuy and it is quiet and moves more air than I expected. I installed it so that its intake is against the video card. It brought the system temp down a fair amount.

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reido@my-deja.com

Friends don't let friends install Windows ME

[This message has been edited by Reid (edited 05-25-2001).]

[mjc]

If you do decide to go with another OS for the setup then, with the full version, it isn't really a problem. Just wipe and reinstall...eMachines doesn't keep any thing special on the hard drive. ME is supposed to have "native" network capabilities but I think that they are more of the file sharing "home" networking kind than what would be needed in a business environment...but with what is native in the two existing OS you should be able to get the two computer to "see" each other and pass files back and forth, with appropriate hardware of course.

As to the cooling, there may not be much that you can do without having it done at CC, any kind of cutting or permanent modifications would likely jepordize the extended warranty. The slot fan sounds like a good idea, you may be able to isolate the vibrations a bit by using some rubber washers when mounting it. Also try here (http://people.freenet.de/s.urfer/casemod.htm) for some other cooling ideas, especially this one (http://people.freenet.de/s.urfer/rubber.htm)

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[kayofcircles]

The EMachine is the first one I have seen that has the hard drive mounted vertically. Truthfully, that doesn't seem like a real swift idea to me..but I don't know anything. Regardless of that, it does make it tricky placing a case fan without making holes or something.

Will ask husband where installed "slot fan" (thanks, much more techy than gizmo), Reid.

mjc: Thanks for link..my husband's gonna love it! Has tape, and rubber, and wire...just need the chewing gum and he'll be back to fixing cars!

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Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life.
-- Chinese Proverb

[mjc]

I haven't personally used it for computer fans but I've seen it used on sound equipment...

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.