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jlreich
02-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Since I am trying to study to take the Linux+ exams I have been spending a lot of time at a major Linux forum in order to immerse myself so I can better learn. Well I will tell you there is a distinct feeling of Linux elitism with this crowd. And I don't think it is just this crowd, but Linux users in general.

Don't get me wrong, there are some very helpful members over there that are not like this, but even so you can still just kind of smell it in the air. :(

There is also things like "newbies" are almost berated because they didn't search the forums first. I understand that a lot of questions can be solved by searching, but not always, and sometimes you may search and actually find the answer but don't recognized it as the answer for lack of experience. ;) Linux is different than windows, those new to it likely don't have a sense of how it works yet and need help with basic concepts.

Other times you may just need a quick answer and hope that someone knows it and can save you a ton of time. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

If you don't want to answer the questions that have been asked a million times then either link to a sticky, or just move on and leave the poster alone. ;)

Maybe I am just spoiled by being here so much. :) Or is that PcGuide elitism? :p

mjc
02-22-2011, 11:31 AM
Why do you think I don't hang around those places?

'RTFM' originates with those folks...so that should give you an idea of where many of the 'old guard' are coming from.

Sylvander
02-22-2011, 11:39 AM
My experiences at the Puppy Linux forums:

1. Have been very good. :)

2. "there is a distinct feeling of Linux elitism with this crowd"
The thing I've seen that comes close to this is that a portion of those who use Puppy tend to have varying degrees of low opinion of other operating systems; Windows being the lowest of the low.
There are some who despise Microsoft, and pity those who use Windows.

3. ""newbies" are almost berated because they didn't search the forums first."
I've almost NEVER seen that.
The exception is one particularly intelligent pest who comes to the Puppy forum to use his intelligence to make as much trouble as possible, by doing that kind of thing.
I think he was finally banned for a time, but is now back; I would have banned him much earlier, so I thought the mods were being MUCH too liberal.

4. "If you don't want to answer the questions that have been asked a million times then either link to a sticky, or just move on and leave the poster alone."
There are certain [simple?] questions that are asked again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again.....
Until finally someone [not me, I deliberately NEVER do things like that] will say "oh no, not this again!"

5. "Or is that PcGuide elitism?"
The PC-Guide has a lot of which it should be proud.
e.g. The very efficient way in which spam/trouble can be rapidly reported and dealt with.
I pointed this out at the Puppy forums, but so far they don't have nearly as efficient a system.

jlreich
02-22-2011, 12:00 PM
'RTFM' originates with those folks...
That I can certainly believe. I see a lot of "see the man page". That's fine, you can learn a lot from man pages, but the man page isn't always very easy to understand. Sometimes it would be nice to just say what switches and options do what and are needed for that particular circumstance.

You know there is a thread going on over there right now that have some members actually stating they are elite. :( Thankfully there are also some that are refuting that.


My experiences at the Puppy Linux forums:

1. Have been very good.
I also believe that. I have popped over there a couple of times and did not get the same feeling as with many of the other Linux forums. The Ubuntu forums also seem to be a decent place for the most part.

There are some decent Linux forums out there. It just seems things like this are very prevalent in Linux forums. :(

Sylvander
02-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Bugman and Lobster are always....erm....interesting. (http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=497741#497741) :D

I rather like both of them. :)

Notice the comments thrown in about other OS's.

123456
02-22-2011, 12:59 PM
The other forums I frequent, one guy is always on Linux. I forget what distro he uses, but he completely attacks anyone who says anything about Linux. Elitist right there.

Paul Komski
02-22-2011, 10:18 PM
Maybe I am just spoiled by being here so much. Or is that PcGuide elitism?
I think you probably are because these boards have always been generally very tolerant, particularly towards n00bs, as well as being strictly (perhaps sometimes too strictly) moderated.

Leaving Linux Elitism aside there have been all sorts of forums that I have frequented over time. Some obviously to do with PCs but others to do with programming and database design and so on. Some were elitist and non-tolerant and others the very opposite. I think it is simply a reflection of real live. There are some clubs it is nice to join and others one should stay away from.

123456
02-22-2011, 10:54 PM
Paul: Are you kidding? This board is anything but tolerant! Every member here is blatantly ignorant, thinks they know everything, and belittle new members! What planet are you on, man?

In case you can't tell, I'm kidding!

jlreich
02-22-2011, 11:17 PM
Some were elitist and non-tolerant and others the very opposite. I think it is simply a reflection of real live. There are some clubs it is nice to join and others one should stay away from.
You are right. I guess I forget the reason why I haven't frequented other boards through the years. :rolleyes: It's just when I started really hanging out over there and really got a good look at what is going on I found it kind of disturbing. I mean there are people who really think and say they are the elite. :rolleyes: I am sitting there thinking, come on... really?... :confused:

Fortunately there are some that genuinely want to help anyone no matter how small or simple the question is. And there is a wealth of knowledge to be had, specifically for my purposes of learning linux.

I suppose I will probably just keep my head down and take from it what I can and look for a more friendly linux forum in the mean time. ;)

Like I said the Ubuntu forums seemed pretty good, and there are a couple others I have found linux answers at but they are geared mostly towards a specific distro and I need one, or several, that covers a wide range of linux.

Fred Forsythe
03-17-2011, 02:26 AM
My experience with Linux (and therefore, Linux forums) is pretty limited. You can't mean to tell me the users are even more smugly self-satisfied than MAC aficionados?!? :D

kiosk
03-17-2011, 06:29 AM
Linux is an operating system that enables you to do ANYTHING you can imagine with your computer. That is, as long as your time has literally no value. :D

Relztrah
03-17-2011, 11:54 AM
There might indeed be a spirit of elitism on the Linux user boards but I have not encountered it in the Puppy help forums which are the only ones I'm familiar with. Puppy by nature is going to have a lot of newbies who are attempting to revive an old laptop and squeeze a couple more years of life out of it. (My last effort, successful at that, was with an old IBM StinkPad with a PII chip and 128MB of RAM.)

Puppy has a relatively small user base compared to the big boys, but the Puppy Linux community is very supportive and helpful.

123456
03-17-2011, 01:01 PM
I hear people at Linux Mint forums are helpful. But Linux Mint is the most user-friendly, idiot-proof distro there is.

Paul Komski
03-17-2011, 04:04 PM
Puppy has a relatively small user base compared to the big boys

Puppy has consistently been in the top ten over the past year according to DistroWatch (http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity).


That is, as long as your time has literally no value.
One doesn't have to be a geek any more to run distros like Ubuntu and Mint. The one thing that makes life much easier for support, updating, adding programs and so on is a good broadband connection. It is broadband that has and continues to revolutionise internet use. One of the most fantastic things about the internet is how it is platform independent.

jlreich
03-17-2011, 05:55 PM
Linux is an operating system that enables you to do ANYTHING you can imagine with your computer. That is, as long as your time has literally no value. :D
Except play windows games without problems. :p Other than that you can do just about anything.

hackerballs
03-18-2011, 11:15 PM
dual boot.........................anyone heard of it? games and puppies

Paul Komski
03-19-2011, 01:27 AM
dual boot.........................anyone heard of it? games and puppies
Of course. But you still have to reboot each time you want use one or the other unless you can achieve what you want with one or the other running in a VM.

jlreich
03-19-2011, 08:47 AM
I have been multibooting for years. Windows for gaming, Linux for most everything else. See my sig.

Don't get me wrong with my previous comment, I am a huge proponent of Linux. But while playing games is doable in Linux it is a ton of work to get only some games to play and more often than not even those are buggy. If gaming developers were to get on board and start writing games to run in Linux natively MS would be in big trouble. If that were to happen the only reason I would still keep windows around would be to keep up on it to support customers. And that almost certainly would be exclusively through VM's.

Sylvander
03-19-2011, 09:52 AM
1. I'm not into gaming, so Windows is almost surplus to my requirements.
I keep it around for the things done in the past, like my Family Tree.
Still fetch my emails there...
Mostly view the text of the emails, whilst still on the POP3 server, in Puppy_Linux->SaveMyModem, and tick them for deletion after dealing with them.
The very few I [don't delete, and] fetch are fetched in Windows->OE.
[Mailwasher beats SaveMyModem for features, but Puppy beats Win2000Pro!]

2. My son was visiting last weekend...
He wanted to connect his Dell Inspiron 6400 laptop running WinXP, wirelesly to my DLink_DIR-615 router, and also install Skype.

(a) I watched over his shoulder as he attempted [and failed] to connect wirelessly.
I knew no more than he did what was not being done that needed to be done.
We were both at a loss. :confused:

(b) So then I had a go in Lupu-520 on his Dell.
Just followed the instructions and hints, and it worked! :)

(c) Installing Skype in Lupu-520 was REALLY EASY.
Found it in the "Puppy Package Manager", and clicked on it, and it installed, and was ready for use.

(e) This success in Puppy spurred my son to have another go.
We connected his laptop by cable, and [in XP] I manged to get SOMETHING [not sure what; whether wireless or cable or both] to connect.

(f) So then he took over, and easily installed Skype in XP.

3. All-in-all, Puppy seemed easier than XP to get things done.
It explained things, and gave suggestions for choices to make...
And JUST WORKED! :)

Paul Komski
03-19-2011, 10:13 AM
If a Dell Laptop with its original hardware was hard to connect to a WiFi Router then there are three likely candidates: (1) firewall blocking or (2) wifi disabled (on PC or in Router) or (3) malware/system corruption.

Installing WiFi under Linux can be a no-brainer or it can be pretty nightmarish if you have to first search for and find Windows drivers and then install them using NDIS-wrapper.

Connecting most PCs by cable using any OS is and has for a long time usually been pretty seamless.

Sylvander
03-19-2011, 11:22 AM
Probably just the fact that both of us lacked the necessary knowledge and experience in doing this kind of thing.

It seemed as though Puppy was more forgiving of inexperience than was XP.

On a previous occasion, on my own I'd connected his laptop_XP by wire, and it just happened...
Didn't know how I'd done it; it just connected as though automatically. :)

To connect Lupu-520 by wire is equally easy, but more explicit.
Frisbee displays big images on screen as it auto-seeks and finds the IP-address of the router.
If there's both wireless and wired, it shows that it has found both, and chooses to use wireless in preference [so it appears] to wired.
I'd like to know what decides that. :confused:
Is it a user choice/configuration?

Paul Komski
03-19-2011, 11:45 AM
If there's both wireless and wired, it shows that it has found both, and chooses to use wireless in preference [so it appears] to wired.
Each network connection has a "metric value" which is normally assigned automatically.

The faster the connection the lower the assigned value and the higher the priority.

In windows TCP/IP properties one can manually enter a value for each NIC under the advanced settings in order to manually decide on the priority network connection - but there would normally seem to be no sense in doing this since the best routing is chosen automatically at any given moment in time.

The routing tables can be shown-up by entering route print at a command prompt.

As long as a wired NIC shows without problems in Device Manager and no fancy settings have been created in firewalls or the router they will nearly all work seamlessly once connected. This is equally true of most Linux boxes in an equivalent manner.

kiosk
03-20-2011, 07:33 AM
I would have switched over to Linux years ago, but the problem is that I'm tied to several very old programs which only run on Windows (and were probably written with Japanese SJIS version of Windows 98 in mind, rather than unicode XP). Another thing is that I don't play games at all - if you asked me when was the last time I played a game on my computer I honestly wouldn't have known the answer. :)

I actually kept running Windows 98 for a ridiculously long time; I first switched over to XP in 2009 (!!!) and hated it from day one. Truth to be told, XP is much more reliable but it has a host of problems that were never fully resolved; network-related mostly, and it has way too much useless feature bloat. XP's security leaves a lot to be desired, and every time I install a fresh copy of XP I need to spend roughly an hour turning off the useless, and potentially hazardous features and installing proposterous amounts of security software to keep viruses and other nasties away from the system. I had none of those problems with 98; hell I didn't even need a firewall with 98.

The only reason I made the belated switch is that I upgraded my mainboard from Pentium 2-era garbage to something slightly less outdated (though it was a hand-me-down as well), and the new board didn't like 98. I got the board and a CPU, I had a graphics card kicking around, and I pulled a gig of DDR1 ram out of the dumpster. (This system has since kicked the bucket as well).

I'm getting off-topic here. I tried ubuntu and puppy on several occasions on the old system, but I felt that the learning curve is rather sharp - and I'm a lazy bum. :) Since I'm currently running a decent AM2 dualcore computer, I might try out puppy once again.

jlreich
03-20-2011, 09:40 AM
Are you running 98 in a VM? Easily done in either windows or linux. I still have a copy of 95 and 98 around here somewhere and once installed 98 in a VM just for fun but it was way too much work to get it going. Probably no more work then getting any other windows system going but it has been so long that I am not familiar with what needs done like XP and later. So for me it wasn't worth it. Heck, it took me about 30 minutes to remember I needed to boot from a floppy to get it installed. I was so confused for awhile, I knew the disk was good the last time I used it but it wouldn't boot. :p Then I remembered, you need a floppy for most of the 9x disks. Thankfully I still keep a floppy drive in my system. ;) Although, I probably could have downloaded a floppy image and loaded it in the VM if I needed to...

I have to disagree about the XP networking thing. There are no issues. I think it works wonderfully. Is it a bit more complicated? Yes. 9x only used NetBIOS, you were forced to use TCP/IP in 2K and later which is a much better protocol. NetBIOS isn't even a true network protocol at all. Another member around here, I am pretty sure it was Mini-me, had to come to grips with TCP/IP when he was forced to moved out of 9x pretty much for the same reasons you were.

98 secure?? I don't know about that... From what I read when I was messing around with it in the VM even when it is fully patched and with community hacks and everything it is still very unsecured. Heck, having a password is useless, just hit cancel and you are in. lol.

Don't get me wrong, if you like 98 that's perfectly fine with me. Some people really like it for its simplicity and just don't want to change to anything else. I understand that. I have coworkers that are complaining about being given a smart phone. They want their basic phone back. On the other hand I find it extremely useful and think it is about time they gave us something we can actually use to do our job better.

Yeah, we are off topic completely. But hey, it is my thread. :p

kiosk
03-20-2011, 12:32 PM
I have to disagree about the XP networking thing. There are no issues. I think it works wonderfully. Is it a bit more complicated? Yes. 9x only used NetBIOS, you were forced to use TCP/IP in 2K and later which is a much better protocol.


I like the general feel of networking in XP, compared to a jumbled list of protocols and bridges in 9x, but I ran into a strange problem (or is it a feature? :D ) when trying to connect two XP computers through their NICs, back-to-back. The computers would acknowledge each other, but they couldn't agree on their respective IP addresses. The solution was simple - disable and then re-enable the connection on the host computer. This became a hassle over time, so I used a wonderful little utility called devcon and wrote a batch file that executed devcon (which would reset NICs for me) at each startup. This was not foolproof - sometimes I have to rerun the batch file, especially if the host computer was running for a long time. :o

Yeah, I know, should have bought a network switch instead, but I had a bucket of old NICs gathering dust so I said why the hell not. ;)

123456
03-20-2011, 12:50 PM
Smartphones are great. I'm typing thid on my droid phone and they're very convenient.

david eaton
03-20-2011, 04:36 PM
and they don't have a spellchecker either!!

123456
03-20-2011, 08:37 PM
It only doesn't spell check when I use the slide-out keyboard... my phone has that and a virtual touch keyboard.

awaj
03-20-2011, 11:58 PM
I hear people at Linux Mint forums are helpful. But Linux Mint is the most user-friendly, idiot-proof distro there is.

I'm sorry, there's one correction I have to make here... the mac OS is also a flavor of linux (albiet an illegitimate child of linux... but still can be under the banner of linux)

as a side note, I think the only elitism here is my "anti-mac" stuff, which I try and be joking about it as I know and understand there are some uses for mac computers...

/me goes off to was his hands with some strong acid...

Paul Komski
03-21-2011, 01:16 AM
the mac OS is also a flavor of linux
The only relationship between Mac and Linux is that neither are Microsoft. It is true that there has been some convergence of late with Intel processors for Mac OS X previously it was motorola processors that ran on Macs. Linux and Windows, however distinct from one another, do both work on identical hardware; PC architecture.

PrntRhd
03-21-2011, 03:29 AM
I'm sorry, there's one correction I have to make here... the mac OS is also a flavor of linux (albiet an illegitimate child of linux... but still can be under the banner of linux)

as a side note, I think the only elitism here is my "anti-mac" stuff, which I try and be joking about it as I know and understand there are some uses for mac computers...

/me goes off to was his hands with some strong acid...
Not exactly a flavor of Linux, neither legitimate or illegitimate.
Apple's OSX is Free BSD based (a Unix-compliant OS), and Linus Torvalds Linux kernel has nothing to do with OSX.

jlreich
03-21-2011, 07:10 AM
Smartphones are great. I'm typing thid on my droid phone and they're very convenient.
Android is based on a modified Linux kernel. I just got an Android phone about a week or so ago that replaced a windows based phone and I do like a lot of things about Android. First and foremost is it doesn't seem to crash near as much. :p

One thing I don't like is this particular phone doesn't have root access so it can't use certain features of some apps. Need to find a hack for it.

They say android is probably the most unsecure phone OS due to the nature of the open source apps. Sorry, I refuse to run an AV on my phone. It's a little ridiculous. If I run into an issue I will just reset it back to factory defaults and start over. And the little droid guy is kind of annoying. :rolleyes:

awaj
03-21-2011, 04:59 PM
sorry, I meant that both Linux and the Mac OS streamed off from Unix (or something like that, I forget the exact relationship, but you can apparently get to the terminal in Mac, and it does respond to the same codes...) the only reason why Mac doesn't work on all hardware that normal versions of linux can is that the programmers fixed it...

PrntRhd
03-21-2011, 10:31 PM
I will agree OSX is set up to run only on Apple hardware, and is certainly licensed that way.