A different kind of utility

[Pianorak]

I am looking for a replacement of an old reel-to-reel recorder (Ferrograph) , which was excellent for recording live piano music. Alas it's given up its ghost and no spares can be had for love or money.

I have googled for a worthy successor, but reel-to-reel recorders appear to be prized collectors items these days. What comes up is stuff like Multitrack Recorders, such as the Yamaha MD4S. But do I need multitrack? Do I want multitrack? The technical specifications read like some language from another planet and I am utterly confused.

Can someone point me in the right direction?


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The PC Guide ueber alles – with Google a close second.

[YODA74]

http://www.astridmm.com/fiasco/teac.jpg
looking for a set up like this,AKAI makes a nice reel to reel. http://audiotools.com/vr2r.html
should beable to find what you want here

also here http://www.callnetuk.com/home/terrym/links.htm
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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 02-23-2002).]

[sea69]

YODA- is that yours???

?

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)

[Pianorak]

Yoda Thanks very much for useful input. The audiotools.com link looks most promising. I'm surprised it didn't turn up in my Google search.

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The PC Guide ueber alles – with Google a close second.

[YODA74]

Sea nope not mine I wish it was though. my dad had one a little smaller than that,think mom had to sell it after he passed on becouse I surely haven't seen it since.


Pianorak it came off google ya just have to be persistant and search every nook and cranny.

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[kayofcircles]

yeah, but there are so MANY nooks and crannies! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

[YODA74]

http://audiotools.com/r2r/b362.jpg
This one looks like a little spazzed out (chiuauauha)I know i did not spell that right.

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[Pianorak]

Yoda Please don't think I am ungrateful, but having spent a couple of hours following up the various links the "cheapest" useful Reel-to-Reel comes in at some $8,000 (plus shipping from Switzerland). And needless to say UK suppliers are thin on the ground.
Maybe I should look at Multitrack devices - if only I could work out how they work, what they do, etc. Can you record on them via a microphone? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif All that I have fathomed so far is that they record on Mini Disks - hmmm http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif. Can I replay mini disks on a conventional CD player? Sorry to be so dense -Sorting a puter seems a doddle by comparison. LOL http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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The PC Guide ueber alles – with Google a close second.

[YODA74]

can you use something like this


http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/tape/tapegraphics/son2520_01.jpg

Sony TC-252D Reel-to-Reel stereo Solid State. 3-3/4 and 7-1/2 speed. Works great! S/N 1011512
$322 plus shipping http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/tape/tc252_1.html


Multi track means just what it sounds like you can put multi-tracks on one tape what that means is the recorder has multiple heads, which would mean on one side of the tape would be two tracts flip the tape over and you would have two morw so basically you are using the tape four times.which will in all aspects to me anyway reduce the life of the tape and the sound quality.tape does stretch and wear out personally i would go for single track. the only reason i can see for useing multi track would be becouse reel tape is very expensive.
Yes you can record on them with a microphone I would set dads up in a bar or pub, and record tracks for his band but noise filtering was none to nill,I used to use multiple mikes.and had a small mixer board.Check out this site there is a couple of AKAI that look pretty fine.
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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com



[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 02-24-2002).]

[Pianorak]

Yoda Thanks for further useful info. I feel I am getting there - once I have managed to track down the elusive UK suppliers. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/redface.gif

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Grigory Sokolov, a pianist of extraordinary talent . . .

[YODA74]

sorry most of the sites are in us, but I'll keep looking maybe I'll hit on something over where your at,Well I'm surfin later

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[Bossa]

Hi guys

Thought i could shed some light on Multitrak recorders

Basically as Yoda says they record 4 tracks on a normal cassette tape. basically how this works is, on a normal cassette you have two channels (left and right) on each side of the tape, four in all, the multitrak records differant instruments on each of the four channels. This is very useful for musicians who want to overdub on to what they have recorded. The could start with one track for drums, overlay a track for bass, then guitar, then vocals. These tapes can only be played on the multitrak as if you were to play them in a normal deck you would hear 2 channels on one side, and the other two channels in reverse on the other side. All this is very handy for garage bands recording demos, or one person bands etc. but probably not what you are looking for. Im sure newer multitraks are available with the MiniDisk format but the object is the same, and it doesnt sound like what you need.

A standard Minidisk recorder with a good instrumental mic from the likes of sony mightn't be a bad option. I may be talking to a friend of mine who works in lighting and sound in a theatre nearby, who could probably give some tips, he's very experienced with old and new equipment. If im talking to him any time soon ill post any recomendations he gives.



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Bill Gates: "If it aint broke, it doesnt have enough features"

Ralph Wiggum:"Me fail English? Thats unpossible"

[Vic 970]

hey yoda
what year is the revox ? I have one like it from early sixties, inc stereo, overdub, echo !

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for every question there's an answer. Then a load more questions.
Definition of Upgrade "A means of introducing new bugs to a program to replace the ones that you have eventually found fixes for"

Regards..,
Vic.

[Pianorak]

Bossa Thanks for input - await further news. Meanwhile shall investigate the Sony TC suggested by Yoda which would probably suit me just fine.

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Grigory Sokolov, a pianist of extraordinary talent . . .

[YODA74]

VIC,
I Believe that is a 1956 you can get the history here http://audiotools.com/vr2r.html#studer

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Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[Vic 970]

thanks for the link yoda. the model shown is a b36, mine is later I think a b36, I also have a truvox. must dust em off an have a look at em.

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for every question there's an answer. Then a load more questions.
Definition of Upgrade "A means of introducing new bugs to a program to replace the ones that you have eventually found fixes for"

Regards..,
Vic.

[Whyzman]

Pianorak,

Hope you get this (http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1334274337) soon enough to have a look-see.

Oh, and PLENTY MORE (http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&query=reel+to+reel+recorder&ht=2&st=2&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&BasicSearch=).

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
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Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

[This message has been edited by Whyzman (edited 02-26-2002).]

[Pianorak]

Forget about reel-to-reel, I think I have found what I want, ie A Yamaha AW2816 Professional Audio Workstation.

Any comments as to suitability for my purposes, quality, drawbacks, advantages, disadvantages etc. etc. would be greatly appreciated.


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Ummm......what is it, exactly, that you want to do?

Sheesh, if I had a toy like that you would never see me around here...I would probaly be getting lots of local bluegrass artists their own CDs....or something.

Looks like it is just thing for a home recording studio. Maybe a little more than you actually need, but hey more is better, right?

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[YODA74]

http://www.giles.com/yamaha1/pr/pro/images/AW2816rear_300.jpg
http://www.giles.com/yamaha1/pr/pro/images/AW2816_300.jpg

As a digital mixer, the AW2816 contains full 32-bit DSP capabilities (similar to that of the Yamaha 02R), 28 fully-automated audio inputs (16 of which are from the internal hard drive), nine motorized faders, four fader and mute groups, four bus and four aux sends plus stereo, and stereo cue busses. All 28 inputs (including eight analog and eight digital inputs via an optional interface card) contain digital attenuators, four-band fully parametric EQ, and direct out assignment

The rear panel contains eight 24-bit mic/line inputs, two of which are XLR with +48V phantom power, plus a high impedance input that will accept a guitar or other instrument directly. Memory areas include scene, channel, EQ, dynamics and effects.

Very nice piece of Hardware just wish it had another CD tray for none stop recording?

------------------
Death has come to our windows.

-- Jeremiah 9:21
(undoubtedly a Biblical reference to a Microsoft product!)

YODA74@carolina.rr.com

[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Pianorak]

mjc What do I want it for? Recording myself playing the piano. Yeah, I know it’s way over the top but I believe it was May West (May who? OK, I know, you’re too young to remember her) who said: You can never have enough of a good thing (or words to that effect). http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Yoda Thanks for the info. Awfully decent of you to go to all that trouble – except I have got all the technical details. Have been Googling all day until I’m blue in the face, and cross-eyed to boot. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif What I was hoping for is for somebody to come in with some personal experience of this equipment.


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Yoda....that is what the hard drive is for... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Pianorak, I may be younger than you, but for most of my life I have been attracted to "classic" movies...so yeah, I know who she is....

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

Lest I gave the impression I am a contemporary of Mae West: Well, I am not – not quite, anyway... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[kayofcircles]

Wow..looks complicated. Won't be seeing you for awhile, huh, Pianorak? I don't think it is "over the top" to record your music..when one has a talent, they should at least share it with friends..don't you think?? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I know I saw a post months and months ago where the guy was doing this.. recording his own music. Guess since he hasn't checked in on this post, he isn't a regular visitor. Or maybe he is very busy...!

[Pianorak]

Kay <<. . . .Guess since he hasn't checked in on this post, he isn't a regular visitor. >> He probably died in the vain search for the Holy Grail. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif
Talking of which has anybody got personal experience of the following equipment?
Roland CDX1 Disclab
Korg D1600, or
Tascam 788 HD Multitrack.

Or preferably recording equipment designed specifically for the recording of classical piano music?


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

OH NO!!!!

What did someone turn on the Grail beacon again?

Probably the single most important item for recording the piano music will be the microphones (yes, microphones)...you will want 2 very high quality mics, maybe 3. The Yamaha (or if the others are very similar, any of the.) should handle the actual recording task quite easily.



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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

mjc <<. . . (yes, microphones)...>> How right you are. Having spent hours deliberating the merits or otherwise of HD recording equipment we eventually got round to the "minor" matter of microphones. Good Lord, was I in for a shock! It seems there is absolutely no point in skimping on those. I was told nothing less than two AKG C200B condenser microphones at £175 EACH (which includes a hefty discount; list price £250) will do. Off to see my bank manager to get a second mortgage!? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif



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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Check out here.... http://www.millennium-music.biz/products.pl?category_id=7&mode=list (£139...a little less)



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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

mjc Thanks! Well, I'll be damned - they obviously tried to screw me up good and proper. And "entry level" at that! Oh dear, why was I born so gullible? Blame the genes, again. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/redface.gif

Anyway, forget about reel-to-reel, forget about microphones, it seems. The latest advice from no doubt well-meaning friends is: Had I considered DAT or MD? Had I? Well no - difficult to consider something when you haven't even heard of it. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif
Anyway, been up all night reading review after review after review - of MDs. (DAT investigation still outstanding).
Mjc, you obviously know about these things. Is MiniDisk really in the running? These things are tiny, the stereo microphone hardly two inches long. My Steinway grand is surely going to make mince meat of it . . . ?? Admittedly I only want it to monitor my own performance - nothing "professional" required, but even so. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/frown.gif

Edit: At the moment I am looking at Sharp MD-MT99H and Sony MZ-R700 and the Sony ECM-DS70 stereo microphone. Any views on that?

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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[This message has been edited by Pianorak (edited 03-15-2002).]

[mjc]

Pianorak,

What is meant by entry-level in this case, is studio line, which is head and shoulders above the basic consumer line...I have used this mic in the past, for a grand piano...not a Steinway, though, and it sounds great. I prefer the C1000B for some applications, but the C2000b is not one that I would pass up...

The way I mic a grand is two from the top and place a third (I like the egg shaped AKG, can't remember the model number right now, but the use it a lot in kick drums) up underneath on the bass strings, then I adjust the balance on the mixer so that the low end doesn't dominate.

As for the minidisc and all that, no, I have not played around with it or even looked at anything, so I'm not really sure about it. And I would think that little mic would be a not too filling snack for the Steinway...but then again I have seen some pretty amazing small mics. If you can find a good store they should be able to let you demo one, and that is about the only way to really know. If you where here in the States I could get you a couple of places that I know would let you demo the equipment, but....

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

mjc Thanks again. Slow as ever I have only just discovered that in addition to portable MD recorders there are the "grown-ups" such as Yamaha MD4S/8S and Tascam 564 etc. which is probably the way forward. Have also come across fascinating articles on how to set about recording piano music (DPA microphones) and how to convert your living room into a "proper" recording studio. Apparently one starts with collecting egg boxes . . . http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif ? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Sounds like what you really need to do is find a couple of good music stores that have some of the gear you are interested in and see if they have any demo rooms....here in the States many do. You need get your hands on some of this stuff and play around with it for a little while.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

mjc The latest bit of advice I have had is to use my PC and simply get the following items:
Marshall MXL 1000 mic (2 x) - Audiophile 2496 soundcard
Behringer MX602A Eurorack (mixing board) - (plus mic stand and connecting cables)(optional) Sony 7506 headphones
He adds:
<<I'd keep everything you have now in your computer, add more RAM (512 Megs total is ideal under Win 98) and to get into the real deal, toss in a big fast 7500RPM 2nd Hard Drive to which you would write audio, if you are able. (A Maxtor Diamondmax 40 Gig for example)>>

Question: Do you think this is a realistic proposition? Can you foresee any problems regarding conflict with mobo, compatability etc.?

My PC specs: Dell Pentium III 600 MHz, Intel 440BX AGP set
Bus Clock: 100 megahertz - BIOS: Intel Corp. 4S4EB2X0.10A.0026.P08 11/05/1999 - Intel 82371AB/EB PCI to USB Universal Host Controller
128 Megabyte Module Size - 1 Installed - 2 Memory Sockets are Empty
NVIDIA GeForce 256 32MB - Creative SB Live! Value
13.66 Gigabytes Usable Hard Drive Capacity - 11.48 Gigabytes Hard Drive Free Space
SAMSUNG DVD-ROM SD-608 - SONY CD-RW CRX140E
Generic IDE hard disk drive (13.66 GB) -- drive 0


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

That would work, especially if you get the memory and second drive. Just keep it for audio. The high-end sound card though could be a little on the expensive side....not sure what you have available over there, but there aren't really all that many companies making them. Back when I was working in the recording studio the latest and greatest sound card for a computer was a SB16, the computer in the studio had a high end card (can't remember which one) but it totally blew the doors off the the SB in quality.....




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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Whyzman]

What about Turtle Beach? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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May all your dealings in life be win/win!


Whyzman
----------------------
Reserved for Punishing Humor...A Pessimist's blood is always B-negative!

[Pianorak]

mjc and Whyzman, thanks. I am inclined to go with the Audiophile 2496 since it comes with Logic Audio "Delta" recording software which would handle my recording application needs at the same time. At least for the time being, if not forever, when I might want to look at Cakewalk.
As to "expensive": this setup is actually a fraction of the cost of any of the options mooted previously.
If I do go ahead there will be anxious moments since I have never fitted a second HD or additional memory. However, at least I know where to turn to for help. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/redface.gif http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif Don't say you haven't been warned! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Yeah, the fact that you aren't having to buy Cakewalk (about $200) will be a big savings...I also did a little checking and that card is close to $300 here in the States, but it is one of the lower priced ones! I was just thinking that it would be in the $500 range that some of the others are. So yes, you would be getting about the same thing by using your computer instead of getting a whole dedicated unit (haven't priced everything out yet but it is looking good for you, especially if you put in your own memory and drive)

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[Pianorak]

As to (UK) pricing: Marshall 1000 mic (two) = £188.22; Audiophile 2496 = £166.11; MX602A = £63.11, Mic Stand (two) = £68.12. Total £485.45 (incl. delivery charges) (plus connecting cords)
Dedicated system built around Roland CDX1 Disclab: £1407
Dedicated system built around Tascam 788: £1256.

Since I am only concerned with stereo input (one piano) and no multitrack it has been suggested that my PC should cope even without a second HD and memory upgrade which, if true, would please me no end. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif Well, only one way to find out. Anyway, if it doesn't work out I can always take the upgrade route later on. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/redface.gif


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Our minds never work so fast as when they have to find an excuse J.L.H. Thomas

[mjc]

Not bad, but I would at least add some more memory, because without it you would quite probably be hitting the swapfile often and that doesn't quite make a good recording...


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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.dreamwater.org/tech/mjc/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.