2nd Amendment (Def. of Expert continued)

[bassvax]

I agree the other post was getting long so I chose to continue on in this one...hope you all agree http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Since we're heating up on the political issues...I frequent another forum mainly for the political conversation (although it is also a good PC help forum with very knowledgeable moderators and members...I'm partial to the family here). Here are couple of links with serious heat involved http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Second Amendment Explained (http://www.suggestafix.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000331.html)

Skip the "survey" part of the following if you like and look at the fervor abound http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

NRA Gun Owner's Survey (http://www.suggestafix.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000456.html)

Let the war/games begin http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Flush 'N' Forget
FE Stokes WWTP (http://www2.apex.net/users/hwuswtp)

[This message has been edited by bassvax (edited 07-26-2001).]

[hiredgoonz]

Well, my current occupation should give some idea of my thoughts on guns...

Sea, we should go shooting some time...

Semper Fi http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[Ghost_Hacker]

My 2 cents....

Gun control laws will never work. The bad guys never believe their going to get caught so they have no problem commiting crimes in the first place and besides alot of them believe have nothing to loss.


But we still must do all we can to reduce the number of guns in this country. Just because you have the right to do something does not make it "right" to do it.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[yawningdog]

Are you saying, GH, that owning/carrying guns is wrong? How about we just say that the crime is wrong?

I agree with your first statement and disagree with your second. Gun laws don't work. But to suggest that gun crimes will decrease in direct proportion with a decrease in gun ownership is madness.

To paraphrase a quote from Thomas Jefferson- The constitution was written for the governence of a moral and religeous people, and is wholly unsuitable for any other.

Americans are losing their gun rights (and most other rights for that matter)simply because they no longer deserve to keep them.

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You cannot break God's law. You can only break yourself upon it.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Guns cause death in more ways then "crime". Kids killing or maiming kids with guns they borrowed from family or had an older person buy for them. People killing others because they knocked on the wrong door. I could go on and on but think about this. Your right to protect your family with a gun ends when that same gun can harm mine. I find it interesting that a person can fail to gain the right to drive a car. But almost noone can fail to own a gun.

As for "rights" they come and go. 200 years ago people had the right to own slaves and women had no right to vote. Today noone has the right to own slaves and women do vote. Moral of the story "rights" are not god given their man given and man taken away.

IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Steve]

Evenin' Folks,

I think there should be more guns in circulation, not less!

Don't kid yourselves, our freedom relies on our ability to defend ourselves. We can't pass responsibility for freedom to someone else. We'll loose it.

In a defenseless society the bad guys can rob, steal, assault etc. because the risks are low. What if every tenth person were armed? What if every forth was armed? What if every other person was armed? I bet it would be a heck of a lot more... "polite" in this country!

If half the population were armed...the rest of us probably wouldn't need to be! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

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Peace and Love, brothers and sisters. Peace and Love

[Ghost_Hacker]

My 2 cents.....


Sadly there are too many stupid people out there for that to work.
We tried that model during the late half of the 19 century. Didn't really work that well.

In my younger days I knew some not so nice poeple. Frankly they didn't care how "armed" you where because they weren't going to give you the chance to defend yourself.

I don't know what the final answer will be but I do hope we find one.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Steve]

Ghost_Hacker,

If I ran into those not so nice people, I think I would want to be armed.

I think the late 19th century worked pretty well. It got us to where we are today! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif And I think that's a good thing.

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Peace and Love, brothers and sisters. Peace and Love

[sea69]

good.

nobody is getting personal here.. lets keep it that way!

fact: More kids are killed falling out of their highchairs than by accidental (or intentional) gunfire.

fact: of the recent societies/countries that have totally taken the right of its citizens to own/posses firearms (Austrailia, Canada) the crime rate has increased something like 100%. (well may not be fact, but it's close!)

fact: In my state (Maryland) we have some of the toughest gun laws on the books, and the highest MURDER RATE.

fact: people on both sides of this almost never agree.

criminals who intend to do wrong with a gun are much happier knowing that we (the honest law abiding citizen) can offer no defense except (if we live through it) to call the police and hope that they catch the felon.

there would be allot more respect and lawfullness with guns and less prison population, because there would be LESS OPORTUNITY to commit these crimes to begin with.. = more law abiding people HAVING guns = criminals, easy targets are not there for them to get caught and sentenced to prison..


see??

oh, and all these "Wanna Be Thugs"...hmmmmmm where would the attraction be for this example when their thug "heroes" are where they get from acting in a manner unacceptable to a normal society that will not be intimidated?

now you see why I didn't really want to go into this here... I have no firm opinion on the matter.....hehe

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


sea- "your friendly computer guy.. hehe, rootin' tootin' six_gun_shootin'..lol"



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-26-2001).]

[iisbob]

While both sides have brought up vaild arguments ( and some media properganda-ie. guns kill more people than...) i'll have to say this;

Don't you think that in earlier centuries this very same debate has been going on?! Not just about firearms ( which have been around for nearly 500 years ) but also on other weapons and arms.

The point is, is that the second amendmant was put in place becuase our forefathers came from a society that tried to regulate private ownership of weapons-people in power just don't like the idea that some farmer could just remove them, ironic since it was with force that their leadership began. Same country has now enacted some of the most draconic anti-firearms laws to date and yet still see an abundance of crime against persons.

There is no easy answer to this questions, some people will always use power to abuse others, should we naively take away the right to firearm ownership from the average person-then do you really believe it will curb gun violence since a criminal by the very definition of his kind will still avail themselves of guns and other weapons? People are killed as much/if not more by liscensed and unliscensed drivers every day; yet it is so common a part of life no one even pays but a passing notice to it. Gun violence is immenantly more " exciting " ( thanks to the media ) than car wrecks. ( of course i'm sure nascar fans would disagree with me on that! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif )


I grew up in a hunting household; respect for guns was my first lesson ( they are not toys! ) and a healthy understanding of the mechanics/physics behind firearms was included-i own many types of firearms, none have ever been fired in anger, hopefully none ever will be.
I don't hunt as much as i used to because of the demands of work and family life-but i have not neglected the education of my family and firearms. It's not the criminal class that so much concerns me as the average idiots predeliction for using a tool improperly. Guns by themselves pose no threat, it is-and ever shall be- the man behind the tool who uses it improperly that will constitute the threat.

I pray that i never live to see a totally unarmed society-such would only lead to anarchy, can you imagine how someone in power would be if they knew that there would be no opposition to them should they determine to take steps in their own interest? It only requires a brief study of history to see how despots are created.

Think about this, do you really believe that guns are solely responsible for all the deaths in the personal crimes committed? Do you or have you ever seen someone who is proficient with a blade? Ever realize you have one of man's oldest weapons right in your kitchen?

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-26-2001).]

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

It seems some have missed my point. Here it is plain and simple. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

Gun ownership should be a privlege and not a right. Just as driving a car is not a right but a privlege earned.


Most people who own guns do not know how to use them in a "situation". They only end up hurting themselves or someone they love.

Your freedoms are protected by planes,tanks and nukes. Anyone who can make that null and void isn't worried about Joe Q. Public and his 9mm. The days of Billybob protecting his farm from the redcoats with his musket are over.


If you have to use a gun to defend your home because an intruder is inside,then you have already failed to protect your family. A gun is the last resort for protection.


Most poeple who have guns have a false sense of thier own security. Plenty of people die with their guns in there hands. Most are suprised to learn that it can take more than one shot to down a man.


People should have the "right" to own guns, that doesn't mean however that everone deserves to own one.


My 2 cents http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif




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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[sea69]

well put GH..

however 'BillyBob' may be my nieghboor, and if he wants to protect his home/family and mine too then that's why we need our rights, to protect, make secure, and insure that we as citizens are free not only in word but in reality- to defend ourselves from idiots, criminals and dope addicts that are supported by the "LawMakers", who get MUCH money by allowing the drugs to perpetuate.

Do you really think that if they wanted to, that they couldn't get rid of illiegal DRUGS????????????????

It's all about the $$

bla bla bla.......

and NO, everyone does not have a right to own (felons and mental patients excluded)

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[CLTEK]

I always find these conversations fascinating. Good job folks at not getting *TOO* passionate about the issue. It's nice to see that on a board these days.

My view might be a bit distorted. It's based on nothing but personal experience. I was raised with guns all over the place. Hunting... The works. I received medals while in the service for accuracy and efficiency with various weapons. I feel that it is a person's right to own a firearm. However, the only way one is getting into my house is if someone is going to kill/rob me, or by some bizarre stroke I end up getting into law enforcement.

My experiences...

-6 year old nextdoor neighbor blows one of the other neighbor kids' head off while showing him his dad's 'unloaded' .38.

-Sheriff friend, Rich Hammick... I worked for the D.A's office. Went to lunch with him. Talked about the forthcoming birth of his son and his wife. By 2pm, 'Narco' received a signed search warrant. By 3:30pm, Rich was dead.

-My friend Rob... Out hunting, there was a misfire. Pulled the shell, a moment later, the round went off and hit him in the neck. He bled to death in the woods.

-My father in law... Nice Chevy Dually complete with bumper sticker which reads 'Have you hugged your assault rifle today?'. Blows his head off in the tool shed because he was depressed. Incidentally... he used his beloved AK.

-My Uncle Nate... 30 year veteran of LAPD. Pulls over a guy for not using a turn signal in San Fernando Valley, Ca. When he approaches the window, the driver shoots him in the face. Dead.

-My Uncle Chuck (aka Del Shannon. Anyone remember his songs?). Depressed one day, shoots himself in the head with a little .22. Dies in the living room of his house.

The list of how guns have effected my life in a negative manner goes on and on. However, I don't blame 'guns'. I blame the owners and perps. For instance... If you own a gun and by your hand or someone elses, any harm comes to anyone... The *OWNER* should be strung up. Traveling gun shows should be done away with. Period.

I don't own any guns anymore. My son is absolutely fascinated with them. And that's ok. He can have fun with his family's guns when he goes back to GA to visit. He can mess around with his b.b. gun when he's back there too. But I won't allow him to have one while he's living in my house.

That's the short version. LOL

Respectfully, Cory

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Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[This message has been edited by CLTEK (edited 07-27-2001).]

[iisbob]

Ghost did you even read my post? Not to be rude, but it doesn't seem like you did, or that you didn't get my point.


Gun ownership should be a privlege and not a right...

the very reason our forefathers made it a right was so misinformed people could not just arbitrarily diarm the public and dso as they pleased.

Most people who own guns do not know how to use them in a "situation". They only end up hurting themselves or someone they love i agree, that's why i stated that it's not the criminals who worry me so much as it is the uninformed who get their " shooting " skills from the movies and tv they see. Solution to this: unfortunately that treads a fine line, how effective is drivrs ed? not very, or you wouldn't be seeing as many accidents on the road as you do. And if people will do as they please in a 2 ton vehicle; how would you expect them to obey basic firearm operating principles?


Your freedoms are protected by planes,tanks and nukes. Anyone who can make that null and void isn't worried about Joe Q. Public and his 9mm. The days of Billybob protecting his farm from the redcoats with his musket are over. that's the very reason the our forefathers put the second amendmant into place; so that " Billybob " will have the chance to make a difference. As to "Your freedoms are protected by planes,tanks and nukes." don't you think that a leader who grew up being tuaght the corrrect way to use /not use weapons would be preferable to someone who's only experiance with guns is through the media, so he has no real concept of the destructive power at his disposal?! Which type of person do you think would be quicker to pull the trigger?! Not understanding the full consequences of his action?!!


If you have to use a gun to defend your home because an intruder is inside,then you have already failed to protect your family. A gun is the last resort for protection.

As to the first part; how do you justify that?! It makes no sense, how is it " my " failure that someone managed to break into my domicile and when i catch him i stop him with a gun?! Are you suggesting that simply because he successfully passed my locks, etc.. i should just let him do as he pleases to me and my family?! As for the gun being a last resort-it's not the weapon that determines the action, but the man-do you think he will stop trying to assualt myself/family if i brandish a bat?! hardly, a more likely scenario is that he/they will be armed-in which case a gun at least gives me/my family a survivablility chance.

Most poeple who have guns have a false sense of thier own security. Plenty of people die with their guns in there hands. Most are suprised to learn that it can take more than one shot to down a man.

That's a statement i'll have to agree with, sadly to many people by a gun, never properly learn how to use it-then proceed to carry it around thinking that now all their problems are over and they're safe whereever they go. As for 1 shot, 1 kill-i've witnessed it, seen it while hunting, and was always instructed that it's where you put it that's more important than what you shoot at it. There again we go back to where people do not get properly trained with the firearms they posses. God forbide you ever actually have to shoot someone, but if you do-make sure it's the person you're aiming at that gets hit and not the child across the road.

People should have the "right" to own guns, that doesn't mean however that everone deserves to own one Now Ghost you just contradicted your entire post! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif But i agree wholeheartily to your sentiment, eveyone should ( and for the moment they do ) have the right to own any type of firearm they choose, ( it's a common misconception that people can't own fully automatic firearms-they can, i do, but you have to pay a special $250 tax, and you have to go through special paperwork if you ever sell it to someone )-however not everyone should own a gun, not everyone should reproduce either! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif But you gotta take the bad with the good. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif


Pretty much, as i stated in my earlier post, ther will be controversy surounding this subject for many more years, and there will always be those who say " nay " and those who say " yeah ", that's what makes this the greatest country in the world, the fact that we can dissent on topics and not be jailed for our protestations! ( by the way, you can thank the descendants of private gun owners for that privilage http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif )

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-27-2001).]

[hiredgoonz]

People have alwasy and will always kill other people...when they outlawed weapons in the far east centuries ago, the people invented martial arts...

Not having a gun didn't stop the guy in Japan from killing 9 people in a school there recently (which gave him a better "victim-per-killer" average than the Columbine murderers)

And it didn't stop the lady who just killed her kids by drowning them in the bathtub...

My point? People are responsible (and should be held accountable) for their actions...a gun, in and of itself, is an inanimate object and is incapable of self-action, it is not intrinsically good or bad, but can be put to such purposes by people...

That said, I do believe that if you prove yourself incapable of handling the responsibilities associated with gun ownership (for example, you pull it out in traffic or your kid shoots a hole in your neighbor's car) then you should lose the right to gun ownership...

Let me just pose a question: Do you think EVERYONE out there (who's not in prison or has some physical affliction that would prevent them from using any mechanical device) should be able to buy a gun?

Personally I've known a lot of people that I wouldn't want to have a gun...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[Ghost_Hacker]

My post are not an answer to yours or anyone elses post. They are simply my "ideas". Having said that let me answer your post. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


First I have seen enough gun fights to last me a life time. I have seen people shot multiply times and still be able to return fire.
Sure One shot one kill works and there is always the golden BB but so few are able to pull that off when the bullets are flying. I will not risk my life or others over some idea that I may be a better shot than the other guy. Best to avoid the situation to begin with. I prefer to not be caught so unaware that I need to start shooting. A gun is always the last option.


Being a good leader does not mean you need to know about guns. It just isn't that simple.


Since most military grade weapons are already outlawed for public ownership. You abilty to fight an armed military force is slim at best without said weapons.IMHO that argument ( that we must defend againest "evil" goverment or be prepared to overthrow one) doesn't hold up today. 200 years ago when Joe Q. public could arm himself as well as any soldier it did.


You do not need a gun to protect your family. Good lighting, secure doors, alarm systems and even a dog ( a good early warning system) will deter most crimals from any wrong doing. These are your first line of defense. If he's in your house it's because he belives he can get the drop on you.He may be wrong but I prefer not to give him the chance to test it.
If a bad guy enters my house (which has never happened and never will, but just for the sake of discussion.) I assure you I don't need a gun to deal with him. I'll call the cops and wait for him to come to me. He can rumage around in the livingroom all he wants. I don't give a damn. But he'll be an unhappy camper if he comes up the stairs.


Gun ownership no longer needs to be a right. But outlawing them is not the answer either. My point is that we should control them at least in the same way we control car ownership. Gun control should be about controlling guns not crime.

EDIT: issbob I did read your post and understand where your coming from.
I just like to get my "voice" out there into the discussion. I know that my ideas or values won't jive with all and that's OK.


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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-27-2001).]

[iisbob]

i hear you ghost and though i heartily disagree with some of your notions; i welcome your input and others who share your view. What makes this country great is that ( despite reporting in the media that may sound different ) we ( america ) celebrate in our differences. It is the ability for us to post our thoughts in this, a public forum that gives us as americans a unique freedom very few other societies enjoy.

The irony of the whole gun ownership debate, is that in order for your right to not on a weapon to be recognized; my right to own a weapon must be recognized.It is of further irony that my right to own said weapon(s) is what keeps your right to speak freely available. How long to you think the first amendmant would last if the second was removed?!


As for you not thinking the public has a chance against military grade weapons, may i remind the majority that most commercial firearms are derived from military designs ( the infamous bolt-action tracies it's ancestory to the great mauser actions of 2 wars)

And it doesn't matter if you spit out 1 or 100 rounds per minute, it's the man behind the gun that wil make a diference. I was in the military, i did face fire ( remember the panama canal incident ) and i can tell you honestly it was the most frightening time of my life, but i stood my ground-and you can bet your sweet fanny that if the situation arise where i have to use violence ( which is the true last resort ) it will be deadly towards the perpetrator. If you've assualted me and my family it's safe to say we won't be friends, so i feel justified in using any force necessary to end the threat to me/my families well-being. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I don't expect to change your mind Ghost or any one else; do not want to really-because the dissenting opinions only prove that when i risked my life to protect these freedoms it was not in vain. Should we all be on the same boat, it would be a boring america.
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-27-2001).]

[nimnorf2]

Dag, looks like you're outnumbered on this one GH. But as (I think it was iisbob)said, ya'll are remaining quite civil, so good for y'all. Stick to your guns on this one Ghost! Ha, little play on words there.
Gun registration, paper work, FBI checks, waiting periods (apparently to keep people from just getting hacked off and shooting someone out of passion) ok, passion crimes? (seems that when someone shoots someone that's always pretty passionate, duh) anyway all of this paperwork is a trail to gun ownership. Recent and past history show that those lists are the first lists the enemy wants to have. I don't want them to be available to anyone, my neighbors, a potential burglar, and certainly not some government that has reason to fear my guns.

The real problem is the violence. The real problem is the propensity of man to do harm to man. The real problem is that our hearts have grown cold and our love for fellow man has been lost to love of stuff. We believe in bumper stickers that say things like "practice random acts of kindness", rather than being kind all the time. Sorry, got preachy again there, figure you all agree mostly anyway. Some times we just feel better after we puke, ya know.
Said this before....you regulars do a great service to a bunch of bumbling computer neophytes like me on a daily basis here on this forum. GH your advice on this forum is top ranked, many of the folks who differ with you on this topic have posted in so many words there respect for you computer expertise. If you get hacked by this.....
peace,

[Ghost_Hacker]

Oh.... I don't mind if people don't agree with me http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I just don't fear the goverment or crimals, therefore for me gun ownership is not worth anything. I also just don't belive that any gun I own would deter a "Hilter" or "Saddam".


Plus many people have already proven that a goverment's policy can be change without the use of guns. The fall of the USSR was the most recent example of a people without guns overthrowing their goverment. Any goverment that needs to be overthrow will be when it's army stops supporting it.


I agree that this society places a lot of value on violence and little on kindness.

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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-27-2001).]

[yawningdog]

Alright, just hold on a minute here. This argument is starting to lose some of it's bitterness!

Just kidding.

GH, I think you've made a serious error in stating that rights are not God-given but man-given.

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Or did you actually intend to contradict the Declaration of Independence?

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You cannot break God's law. You can only break yourself upon it.

[hiredgoonz]

GH, I mean this w/NO disrespect, but you must live in Ft. Knox and be one bad dude to say some of the stuff you've posted...

I am confident in the integrity of my house and I'll take on anybody in a fight if it comes down to it, but:

1) if somebody really wants to break into my house (or anywhere else) they WILL succeed

2) I'm not bullet proof, even if I could whoop somebody's a$$, that ain't gonna help if they shoot me in the head...

Since I don't know how a burglar might be armed, the first thing I'm gonna do if one manages to get in the house is call the cops, the second thing is gonna be to chamber a round, and if he tries to get into the bedroom, he's going back down the stairs with 2 hollow points dead center mass...


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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[sea69]

Originally posted by yawningdog:


Or did you actually intend to contradict the Declaration of Independence?



I don't think that was necessary. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

He has his views, you have yours, I have mine.

It's the way this country works.

be nice.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[kaos]

Since I don't know how a burglar might be armed, the first thing I'm gonna do if one manages to get in the house is call the cops, the second thing is gonna be to chamber a round, and if he tries to get into the bedroom, he's going back down the stairs with 2 hollow points dead center mass...


I'm sorry, but, that sounds to me like a man that lives life to happily and doesn't have to worry about such an issue. If you did you would realize, first, that the cops won't be there in time to save you or your family. Second, you won't know he's there, if it isn't chambered, you're already dead. The criminal, that doesn't care about laws and has a gun whether it's legal or not, isn't going to wait for you to chamber it. I'm sorry but, you can't chamber a gun quicker than someone can pull the trigger. Guns are an integral part of society and shouldn't be taken away at all. It doesn't keep the guns out of the criminals hands AT ALL! Only the scared, law-abiding citizens. For all you that think it's safer with a ban on guns, look up Englands,Australia's ans Canada's record since the gun ban. What are you going to do if there's a gun ban and a person comes into the house and holds you and your family hostage with a gun? Nothing! He will do whatever his sick mind wants to do to your wife and kids. Quit being so naive and he isn't going anywhere with "2 hollow points dead center mass."


[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 07-27-2001).]

[kaos]

The thing that cracks me up is...Can we now change the constitution to eliminate women from voting? How bout other issues? Of course not, but, the 2nd Amen. can be changed at will because a few people think it's for the better. What if a few people thought that women weren't as smart as men in making a decision on voting? Or vice-versa, I honestly don't think there are a lot of men out there that have half-a-brain...lets eliminate them from having any voting privileges whether it's in the constitution or not. ( I know, far out fantasy views, but, not off topic)

[hiredgoonz]

Perhaps you misunderstood, I'll break it down for you...getting into my house is going to make A TON of noise, when I hear my front door open or a window break, a few things are going to happen very quickly...

By the time anyone is up the stairs and trying to break down my bedroom door, the police will have been called and I will be patiently awaiting the poor schmuck who is about to be on the receiving end of a double tap...

My reasoning: I live in MD, if I shoot somebody without taking "all reasonable measures to avoid the situation" I'm going to jail. And the only people who keep a weapon with a round in the chamber are either in the Israeli special forces or are too stupid to realize the risk involved...

I am quite aware of how shooting works, I am a U.S. Marine, I have been trained in combat shooting and have received SWAT and anti-terrorist training. I have fired more weapons than you will probably ever see and have been in situations that most people will never be unfortunate enough to find themselves in...

So before you try and tell me how the world works or what I will or will not have time to do in a "hostile" environment, try to remember that your limitations are not necessarily the same as mine...


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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[bassvax]

So before you try and tell me how the world works or what I will or will not have time to do in a "hostile" environment, try to remember that your limitations are not necessarily the same as mine...

Excellent point Hired! This is why an out right ban on guns is not necessary...I will acquiesce one point to GH I think alternatives to all these gun control laws are education and training for would-be gun owners...I believe the NRA is doing this now (and has for a while).


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Flush 'N' Forget
FE Stokes WWTP (http://www2.apex.net/users/hwuswtp)

[hiredgoonz]

So much for a good-natured discussion...

I support the rights granted to people by the Constitution, but every right has responsibilities that go with it and there is no longer such a thing as an unrestricted right...

The Second Amendment was written in a different time under different circumstances, I don't believe it should be repealed, but it is very unrealistic to think that everybody should be able to buy a gun...

Think about any of our rights...free speech does not cover slander, the right to vote still requires you to register and felons cannot vote, freedom of religion doesn't allow one to sacrifice humans...

Instead of trying to ban guns, why don't we work on enforcing the laws that exist and punishing people who commit violent crimes????

With or without guns, murder will still exist, it always has...human beings have been killing each other since time immmemorial and it hasn't always been with guns...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[kaos]

And the only people who keep a weapon with a round in the chamber are either in the Israeli special forces or are too stupid to realize the risk involved...
I have fired more weapons than you will probably ever see
Please don't let this get into a flaming war. That's not the point I'm trying to make and would like to keep this civil please.I myself am a Green Beret, and never threw that into the equation. So I highly doubt your assumption that you have have fired more weapons or have better training than me. That's not the point. (Anybody in the military knows they are better than all the rest, so lets let that die.) I keep my guns chambered but, I can assure you I'm not with the Isreali SF. That's a moronic statement I hope you said out of anger or for flamebait. Anyone who thinks people will make so much noise getting into the house and have time to call the cops is so seriously mistaken. Sometimes, yes. Most of the time, NO. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any crime, because everyone would hear the intruders coming in, then they would have time to call the cops, and then have time to load their guns and then have time to warn the intruders. Heh. ok. Sounds great on paper.

[kaos]

Instead of trying to ban guns, why don't we work on enforcing the laws that exist and punishing people who commit violent crimes????

HG! That's the absolute most intelligent statement made in this whole thread. It's not the guns, it's tha laws we already have that need to be enforced. Being a lifelong member of the NRA, I can honestly say that the NRA is probably the least lenient of violent offendors with a gun. Well said my friend.

Edited:


So before you try and tell me how the world works or what I will or will not have time to do in a "hostile" environment, try to remember that your limitations are not necessarily the same as mine...



I'm sorry that you took it personally that I was talking about you. I thought you were making a blanket statement and only meant to respond with a blanket reply. Of course all instances are different. Even having a gun doesn't mean you're safe. I humbly apologize the way it was said HG.



[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 07-27-2001).]

[hiredgoonz]

I make no claims about anybody's situation but my own...and I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, but I did feel it was appropriate to the discussion to refute your assumptions about what I am capable of...

I have several measures in place that ensure that it is NOT possible to get into my house quietly unless you're being let in from the inside...

I WILL hear someone breaking into my house, I WILL have time to chamber my weapon, (being a green beret, you should know this takes about half a second) and I WILL end the life of anyone who attempts to enter my sleeping quarters...

I am opposed to banning guns, I like them, I like shooting them, I have respect for them and if the situation arises, I will be glad to have one so I can use it for its intended and lawful purpose...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[kaos]

Enough said HG, I respect your opinion and actually agree with you my friend. I didn't mean for this to get so heated.

[mjc]

In many ways it is still like the Old West around me, contrary to some modern re-interprettations, there were a large number of gunfights and gunfighters and they, at least those who made it their profession, knew that there would someday come someone who could shoot faster and straighter than they could...the same still goes around here you don't know who is or isn't armed and how well they can shoot...the odds are that they are and can shoot fairly well.

Where I live there isn't really a crime problem, violent crime at least, oh you get your D&Os, an ocaaisonal knife fight and what not, but B&E is almost non-existant, why because around me no one knows who isn't armed...a double barrel 12 gauge can be a pretty persausive arguement ender. You never know if Granny is going to pop out of the bathroonm and let loose with both barrels of OO buckshot, or the guy sleeping on the couch is going sit up with a .30-'06 pointed at you as climb in the window. So most of those with criminal intent stay away from resisdential targets, yeah we get are fair share of conveneince store hold ups (because most chains don't allow armed employees).

With guns and hunting such an ingrained part of society in my area we have remarkedly few accidents...some of which after very thorough and careful investigation turn out to be otherwise. why is that, because from an early age most people around here are taught how to behave around and handle guns safely...it is rather pleasant to walk into a local gunshop and see the young person there properly checking out and handling each one as the owner passes them across the counter, always pointing the gun in safe direction ...

And the most basic rule that was taught to me when I was a child...Never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

[kaos]

That's very true mjc. I, like HG, have a hard time with the whole Gun Control issue. It is so sad that when 2 people feel the same way fight with each other so vehomently. (My fault, not blaming you HG) That's what's become of this issue. People that have no clue in life, living in the burbs and thinking "That won't ever happen to me BS" approach an issue with complete unsubstantiated opinion, and think they are doing something with their miserable lives. If you don't have a clue, then you should stay out of it. Unfortunately, the people that have a clue, end up fighting with each other because they are so tired of being persecuted for what they believe and know what's right. If you've never shot a gun, or had to protect your family in a life and death fashion like some of us have, you just need to learn something before you commit to an issue I believe.

[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 07-27-2001).]

[hiredgoonz]

Personally, I would feel more comfortable in a place like mjc is talking about...

Living 20 minutes from Baltimore and 30 from DC, you hear about all kinds of crazy stuff...

Most of the people around here that have guns are punks and criminals...MD's laws make it practically impossible for a law abiding citizen to have a gun, but if you're buying illegal guns, it's alot easier...

My neighborhood is pretty nice, I don't lose much sleep worrying about people breaking into my house, but I am prepared for it...

I think the main problem is the changes that have occurred in society...used to be that most people pretty much lived by the rules, but as time wears on, more and more people stop doing the right things and instead do whatever they want...

There are not enough police to stop the tide and without something in place to discourage would-be criminals, things will just get worse...

And as far as our earlier disagreement kaos, I think we were coming at it from the same assumption: "that the other guy didn't know what he was talking about" Now we both know better, and believe me, we're on the same side of this one...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[This message has been edited by hiredgoonz (edited 07-27-2001).]

[kaos]

And as far as our earlier disagreement kaos, I think we were coming at it from the same assumption: "that the other guy didn't know what he was talking about" Now we both know better, and believe me, we're on the same side of this one...

I think you're right, and I got your back my friend.

[mjc]

As some of you may not have figured out yet I come down firmly on the side that the Founding Fathers knew what they were doing and knew what they were writing, and that the Constitution and Bill of Rights, are written in such a way that a person of reasonable intelligence and education can very easily understand the meaning of them.



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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

Gun Control...hitting what you aim at!

[hiredgoonz]

In my experience there are less people of "reasonable intelligence and education" than there are complete morons... http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I think that's the problem...

They did a damn good job on the Constitution...in over 200 years there have only been 17 additional amendments (after the Bill of Rights of course) and two of those shouldn't count anyway (prohibition was a bad idea and one the Founding Fathers never would have approved of http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif )

Instead of demonizing guns, I think we should stick to a more basic concept: that people are responsible for their actions...if someone breaks the law, be it with a gun, a baseball bat or a car, they should be held accountable...

I don't believe that my right to do something should be taken away because of the irresponsibility of others...

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When all else fails, read the instructions.

[mjc]

hired, I think you have hit the nail on the head...if I spill coffee on my lap it can't be my fault, it must be the restaraunts fault! A video game made me do it...everyone laughed ba in the '70s when Flip Wilson would go around on stage saying "The Devil made me do it." Now it is everyone elses fault...not mine; games, tv, my parents, or whatever the cause of the day is. But not my fault......

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

Gun Control...hitting what you aim at!

[nimnorf2]

MJC, and others, if you were the "benevolent dictator" meaning that you're good but have absolute authority, how would you go about fixing our woes? I think you guys are pretty much right on with the problem.

[CLTEK]

All this debate is great. But will it change anyone's thoughts or opinions? No. LOL. When all is said and done, the 'pro' guys will still be 'pro' and the 'anti' guys will still be 'anti'.

I have a general question for y'all...

Have any of you ever had a gun pulled on you in a situation where the bearer of the weapon intended to harm/kill you?

By the same token... Have any of you ever drawn a weapon on someone else with the intent to harm/kill them?

I'd like to see what you all have to say about this before I volunteer my responses to these questions.

How about it guys?

Cory

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Age and Treachery will forever triumph over Youth and Skill.

[iisbob]

Excellent point Hired! This is why an out right ban on guns is not necessary...I will acquiesce one point to GH I think alternatives to all these gun control laws are education and training for would-be gun owners...I believe the NRA is doing this now (and has for a while).

That sounds like a great point bassavax , problem is is that your normal firearm owning law abiding citizen is afraid that the if this were tried , the goverment , or some part of society would wind up twisting it in such as way as to cause it to become a way for disarming the public; ie..if you don't pass this firearms test you can't get a weapon-becuase you didn't get a %100 ( like you missed a question on " who developed the breech loader ? " ), there are unscrupulous people on the " anti " side who would jump at that chance to use something so trivial to deny you your constitutional right.


There is just no easy answer to this question. LOL , besides-prohibition didn't stop the liquer market, it only made people like the Kennedy's rich!! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif Same thing will happen if they try to ban firearms ownership in the US; they'll just create a blackmarket and exacerberate the problem.


cletek i have been involved in criminal actions when i was youger; yes i've been shot and i've shot back-those were the stupid days of my youth, and by the good grace of God and some strong people who loved me , i managed to get my live straightened out ( not to mention some loud drill sgt.'s http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif )-so yes, if today i have to be involved in another p-to-p battle, i can tell you i will be able to handle the situation. But hopefully i've grownup up enough to know better than to place myself in that situation. I think it shows a strong character on your part that through all the tragedy you posted earlier that you have not become an unreasonable hater of guns; that you realized it was the people who made the choices and that guns just happen to be the tools they chose.


Kay my wife agree's with you-she thinks we need a women president and that all men should be banned from making major descisions! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif Then the world might be run more intelligentlly. I told her this was a silly idea ( actually i kinda whispered it behind her back while she was asleep-i'm brave but ain't stupid! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/tongue.gif )LOL.

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

[This message has been edited by iisbob (edited 07-28-2001).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

yawningdog.. Let me ask you a question. Did God write the the Declaration of Independence? The only God given right is the right to free will. The Declaration of Independence is not the Bible. It's a very good document one which I have much "love" for but it has nothing to do with God.It provokes God thur it's passages , but the fact that we had slavery for 100 years after it's creation tells me it has nothing to do with God. Seperation of church and state. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


Sea.. "Billy Badass" me????.....LOL. I have no fear of man only of God.


CLTEK.. Don't take this the wrong way. But what I have or haven't done is none of your business. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif but I'll tell you this. If anyone in my family is hurt or killed by some gun lover, they won't be safe from me no matter how many guns they own.

My 2 cents.....You can't control crime with simply laws. If that worked crime would be non existent. Social issues need to be addressed to solve that problem. I want to control guns. Too many people with guns "fear" too much and these folks always end up hurting someone.

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Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-28-2001).]

[sea69]

Originally posted by Ghost_Hacker:


Sea.. "Billy Badass" me????.....LOL. I have no fear of man only of God.

huh?? never said it.

I stepped out of this and have been watching... (notice)


fact: people on both sides of this almost never agree.

I live in Baltimore the MURDER CAPITOL of these United States,(as well as the Toughest gun laws on the books) and in addition to "other" secuity measures, the BOTTOM LINE is if a "badguy" gets past those and comes into "my space" they will be on the recieving end of my RUGER 30 round teflon tip (folding stock) assult rifle. It always has the clip in /safety on, and needs only to be 'racked' (pull back the slide) one time and even kevlar will be of no help.

I liked the one post about grandma and the 12 gauge.. hehe http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

as for the bad guys........ I will say that upon meeting me in person I am the same as online.. I am NO bad ass, or wanna be , I have instructed innercity youth here on gun saftey. I also enjoy going to the shooting range and outshooting the cops.. (they are soooooo surprised) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

If you want to think about it for a secoond or two, the real problem today is DRUGS.

You don't hear this on the evening news, but think...... if our government wanted to get rids of the drugs they couldn't.

"War on drugs".. is lost, it never even happened at all.

If we wanted to get rid of them, and tried to completely... well the reason we don't is because of one thing.

$MONEY$.

all the $$ being GENERATED because of the drugs- the purchase of, the manufacture of, the man on the street using his rent $$ to get drugs instead of paying his rent, the disease, hospital costs, billing would be at a standstill, the courts, jails,... all of this and everything that comes into play regarding everything that these events (and many other things) are a result of the economy generated by them.

Our economy (as we know it) would COLLAPSE if we got completely rid of the drugs now at this late stage.. even if we could do it. Talk about a stock market crash..... hmmmmmmm.

One half a block from my house is Leverton Street it is the known "Crack Street" for years, and the Police sub-staion is less than a half a block away as well... go figure..........

anyways........

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-28-2001).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

sea opps......That line was in responce to Hired....not you. Sorry for the typo.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[iisbob]

you know GHost i been meaning to tell you how much i like your signature! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I copied it and sent it to a friend of mine ( making sure to attribute it to you of course http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif ) and he can't stop laughing about it.

He's an old trekker from TOS; and a 'puter geek also-amn you made his day. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

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iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

[Ghost_Hacker]

Thanks iisbob, but I can't take credit for the line. I copied it from a "top 10 list" of things a Klingon programmer might say. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[yawningdog]

GH... God did not write the Declaration of Independence of course, but it was in fact written by men who knew more about the Bible and God's will than you or I. I get from your position that you disagree with the document on the subject of rights and I was only seeking to clarify. I apologize if my rhetoric was too harsh.

The Constitution was what ended slavery, or specifically, one of the amendments(I forget which). This is why the Constitution was called by Ben Franklin "an imperfect document made perfect by the amendment process". I don't know about anyone else, but I can clearly see God's providence here. Even the Jews, God's chosen, have spent much more time enslaved than any other race. Indeed, slavery continues to this day in African countries with secular governments.

The term "seperation of church and state" appears nowhere in any federal document until 1956, and even now, Chief Justice William Rhenquist calls it "bad law". To quote George Washington- "It is impossible to rightly govern without God and the Bible."

Check it out everyone. We live in a country founded by Christians and with Biblical principals. I can back this statement up with several hundred pages of evidence (thanks nimnorf2). To deny it is just that...denial.

Please, don't anyone take this post as flamebait. I've done nothing but state facts.

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You cannot break God's law. You can only break yourself upon it.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Everything is God's providence. God talks to everyone in many ways,not everyone hears him.


The consititution did not end slavery but it was a step in that direction. Free will means that you can feel and think about any sitiuation in any manner that you like. This can not be taken from you by any man because it is given to you by God. But your right to a gun, a car, a house, even your personel freedom can be taken away by any man with the power to do so.


That is what I mean by "man given".

I do not belive that a document based on a "religion" is the same as a document based on God. They are not one and the same to me. The 10 commandements are prefect because their based on God's word. The consitution is "imprefect" because it's based on a religion.


IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-28-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

kaos: I was staying out of this one because I was concerned that this was an issue that many cannot be objective and reasoned about, and there is a vast difference between "debate" and "argument." But your "People that have no clue in life, living in the burbs and thinking "That won't ever happen to me BS" approach an issue with complete unsubstantiated opinion, and think they are doing something with their miserable lives. If you don't have a clue, then you should stay out of it." upsets me because if we left all debate up to those who "know something" about an issue..the country would be run by only a few and the rest of us would have no voice at all. The fact that I have not been in the military means that I should have no voice in a debate about guns? Or the fact that I live in a place where I don't have to lock my doors? I am assuming you got caught up in a moment of passion, and do not actually mean what you implied.

CLTEK: Just want to say that I am saddened by your losses. I understand not blaming guns, but it is sad to live in a society where those things occur.

iisbob: I don't recall saying anything about a woman President. And let's not go "there"..we've got enough controversy here without doing a battle of the sexes too. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[sea69]

conspicuously absent throughout all this is our leader Pete..

(I know our Texas musician has thoughts on this) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

oh Pete......... what you think?

interested to hear.

note: this thread may beat the other ones for most replies.. hehe

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)



[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-28-2001).]

[darm]

Originally posted by yawningdog:
GH... God did not write the Declaration of Independence of course, but it was in fact written by men who knew more about the Bible and God's will than you or I.


How do you know ? were you there?

Oh how I wish I never mentioned your archaic gun laws in the first place.(no offence meant to anyone)

Fact: Wasn't the Declaration of Idenpendence written on paper made from hemp. And we all know what hemp is, don't we? http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[yawningdog]

Darm, of course I wasn't there. And are you suggesting that because the Declaration was written on hemp, that the signers were smoking the other part? It sounds silly to reach for that,I know, but I can see no other reason for you to make mention of it.

It's a well documented fact that of the 55 signers of The Declaration Of Independence, at least 40 had theology degrees. In the 18th century, that meant fluency in at least Greek, and probably Hebrew and Aramaic as well.

I guess GH and I will have to agree to disagree on the definition of rights, and my question will go unanswered. I maintain that my rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness cannot be taken away by man, but only opressed.

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You cannot break God's law. You can only break yourself upon it.

[sea69]

yawning- the 'brits' have no Bill of Rights, in fact no other country has a Bill of Rights.

they are not able to understand us wanting to stand up for having these rights because they do not have them at all. (and never have- hence why the USA was formed)

but when the 'chips are down', what country does every other country call for help?

(as darm always puts in "no offense")

probably lit another fire there.......

lol

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-28-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

yawningdog: darm was making a joke! I thought it was funny. His original comment was in response to a buzzword ("jealous")in another thread.

We watched all the debates before this last election, and I was dismayed by the polarizing. It seems that we find ourselves in opposite extreme positions on some of these topics and can't even acknowledge the other side's point of view as being valid. I really believe there is a middle position..a place of compromise and working together and of acknowledging that both sides have valid arguments. But we are never going to be able to find those compromises and solutions if we disdain all ideas from the opposing side just because they had the idea first.

[sea69]

Kay- lets you and me have some of that 'squash _cake", and watch the 'hemp' discussions....

hehe

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

**puff**

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sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


[This message has been edited by sea69 (edited 07-28-2001).]

[kayofcircles]

Yes! That cake might taste better after some tokin', huh?

Whine....could someone start a new thread? This one's taking too long to load. Maybe 2nd Amendment, part 3?

[darm]

Originally posted by kayofcircles:
Yes! That cake might taste better after some tokin', huh?

Whine....could someone start a new thread? This one's taking too long to load. Maybe 2nd Amendment, part 3?

Go for it Kay
Glad someone thinks I'm funny http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by darm (edited 07-28-2001).]

[mjc]

been there done that....here (http://www.pcguide.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000148.html)

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mjc
Links list:Computer Links (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/highrise/11/index.htm)

Celts are the men that heaven made mad, For all their battles are merry and their songs are all sad.

Gun Control...hitting what you aim at!

[kaos]

I am assuming you got caught up in a moment of passion, and do not actually mean what you implied.

Yes, Kay, I got caught up in the moment and maybe wasn't thinking rationally before I spouted off. Please forgive me. I've just been bashed for this "wanting to have guns" by so many people for so long it gets to me. That's why I bowed out and kept quiet. Heck, me and GH were arguing with each other and we feel the same exact way on the issue. That's what it does after a while I guess. I don't think you have to own a gun to be knowledgable about this Kay. I just think we haven't tried to enforce the laws on record to make the laws we have now work. Again, I apologize for the way I went about it, I can't debate about this subject in a civilized manner so I will stay out of it.

[ranchdog]

I promised myself I would never argue politics or religion with anyone. Here is my take on the current discussion.....Society as we know it has gone to hell in a handbasket. Bieng moral and family values are almost non-existant. There needs to be a change in the way our children are raised. Setting a better example for them to follow would be a major improvement. Some examples I see today really sux. And a lot of it is just the little things. Whatever happened to being courteous/respectful to other people? Nope. It's easier to do a drive-by over some turf war. Morality.... I see a terrible lack of it. I agree and/or disagree with different parts of every post that has been made. The Solution.....It comes from within.

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......Indecision may or may not be my problem......

[Ghost_Hacker]

Kaos.... I was not aware we were in arugment http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif I agree that a gun does not make you safe.It might make you feel safe. For example:

Does it protect your children when their at school?
Does it protect your wife from a stray bullet fired from a block away?

It might come in handy if someone brust into your home uninvited, but that's all,unless your family members carry a gun every time they leave the house. A far better solution IMHO is to get involed in your community, get your friends and neighbers involded in the community. There are so many ways to help reduce crime in your neighborhood and make it safer for everyone.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 07-30-2001).]

[sea69]

Originally posted by Ghost_Hacker:
[A far better solution IMHO is to get involed in your community, get your friends and neighbers involded in the community. There are so many ways to help reduce crime in your neighborhood and make it safer for everyone.



I agree.

to an extent, it is a sad fact that TODAY, you can live right next door to someone (in many parts of the US) and not even know you nieghboors at all.

I think if we knew each other a bit more (now that the "ME" generation is over) we might have a better chance to educate those that are not insane or criminals on gun saftety.. I know this is not what GH meant, but it sounds good to me.

hehe

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[kaos]

Kaos.... I was not aware we were in arugment

Whoops http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif Sorry GH, meant HG. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Donna]

I saw a statement in here some where, Since when have guns been banned in Canada? I know there are new threads started in here on this topic, but i saw it it this one.

[YODA74]

Mannnnnnnn?

(quote)

IF YOUR WILLING TO GIVE UP YOUR FREEDOM FOR SECURITY THEN YOU NEED NEITHER ONE !(BENJEMAN FRANKLIN)

IF NOT GUNS THEN SPEARS,ROCKS,KNIVES,POISON,OR STICKS,AS IN ABLE AND CAAN
GUNS DON'T KILL People--people kill people.I support the RIGHT to keep and BARE ARMS against an opressive government and any one else that gets in the way of my GOD given right in the pursut of my freedom and to protect what is mine.AP'S have a nasty habbit of going thru a tank and still want to travel 4or5 miles.Long distance is the next best thing to being there.From my cold dead hands will they get my Weapons!

__________________________________________________ ____________________

IF IGNORENCE IS BLISS,WHY AREN'T MORE PEOPLE HAPPY

[iisbob]

Read this post here, newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/25/130646.shtml) Donna and let me tell you i'll never go back to canada on a hunting trip again! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/mad.gif

They treated us like criminals at the border when all we had were perfectly legal hunting firearms! We knew there were no persoanl handguns allowed, But my friend hunts with his Taurus 44mag Raging Bull-so we didn;t think anything about it when we were going on our hunting trip ( this would have been the 5th in canada ). But after the hassles we went thru at the crossing, i wouldn't go back to canada to take a dump!!

If you're a native canuck Donna i wish you the best in defending yourself with the louisville slugger that they only allow honest citizens to have; much good it'll do you against an armed criminal.

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[Donna]

WellHoly!!!!!!!!!!!

I could open up a whole can of worms here .......... but i won't. I'm smarter than that.

So far in my 36 years of living here i have never needed a hand gun to protect myself. I havent run into any criminals.

Now i have needed a Gun to protect my self from the many bears that have wondered through my back yard, but bear spray and a bear banger are used first.

Sorry to hear you had problems at the border, but laws are laws, You wouldn't want me breaking yours when i come to the states, and i am sure there are many animals you can shoot in the states.

[This message has been edited by Donna (edited 09-01-2001).]

[kaos]

iisbob,
That was totally out of line and uncalled for! She's a close friend of mine I told could come here and not worry about flamewars. Then you have to jump in and tell her "You wouldn't go to Canada to take a dump?" What kind of talk is that? She didn't say anything about you and you have to go cut her Country down like she cares if you go back there? You need to hone up on your socialization skills, this isn't the first time you've been out of line with someone. I thought I was bad at communicating with people, but, you're just an ass.

------------------

Linux Freak!
Be a leader not a lamb,
Look to the Penguin.

[YODA74]

Ya i can't say nothen bad about Canada i went to quebec the only thing is we went to the french quarter and we were not treated the way that i have treated our canadian neighbors, just becouse we did not speak French but i still enjoyed my self and it is a good place to hunt heck if they don't want to shoot there bears i'll do it forem. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by YODA74 (edited 09-01-2001).]

[iisbob]

kaos not only was that out ofline, but i never once insulted this donna persoanlly-i just made ths statement that for many years i've hunted in canada ( such a beautiful country too ) and until recently, when the EDITED ( like you sound to be ) decide to make anyone carrying a weapon a criminal. Never had to shoot anybody yet myself Donna, and i hope i don't ever have to-doesn't mean i should be treated like scum because i legally own a weapon(s).

Any time you little EDITED you wanna start something i'll be more than glad to take on your illiterate moronic EDITED excuse for an IQ.

You watch your mouth or you'll open a can of wormns you've no prayer of closing again little boy.

------------------
iisbob
"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

[This message has been edited by Paleo Pete (edited 09-13-2001).]

[kaos]

Your threats mean nothing to me little one. You so often speak of your high intelligence, I've yet to see you do anything but spout off and flame people when they don't agree with you and "all of your years of pc info". So please, go play with someone who gives a crap what you think moron. Your idle threats do nothing but give me a laugh little man. I have always found the ones that brag about how smart they are are always the biggest idiots and have to brag about being smart to keep that fact away from everyone else. Sorry, didn't work with me. I think you're an idiot. Also, stop with the "you better watch your mouth" bs. That sounds so 1st gradish. Oh nm, that's probably your level of knowledge.. My bad.

------------------

Linux Freak!
Be a leader not a lamb,
Look to the Penguin.




[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 09-01-2001).]

[Donna]

Originally posted by Donna

Sorry to hear you had problems at the border, but laws are laws, You wouldn't want me breaking yours when i come to the states, and i am sure there are many animals you can shoot in the states.

Are you saying that just because something is legal in your country you should be able to do it another?

I'm allowed to smoke pot for medical reasons, so am i going to be allowed to bring it over the border into the states?

Prositution is leagal in some places, so does that mean if its legal where the prostitute lives she/he can sell themselves anywhere?
You have to abide by the law where you are.
Also by insulting my country you have to some extent insulted me.

YODA Most canadians think the same about Quebec, ive never been there so i can't say. But hey you want to have a good holiday come to Northern B.C. We are really nice up here, I've given many Americans gas money and taken in the odd stranded american student for the weekend waiting for the banks to open, who has run out of money on there way to Alaska. But hey leave the bears alone....... I like them. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[sea69]

sure wish this topic would be closed.

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif



------------------
sea1_69@hotmail.com

homepage (http://www.seanweb1.homestead.com/3.html)


;)~

[RKBA]

I came here looking for advice on the best configuration for my hard drives, but this topic caught my attention, so...


1. I'm really surprised no one has mentioned John Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime : Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics)" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226493636/thesit) It's an excellent book that presents an analysis of very comprehensive data that confirms one fundamental fact that almost all politicians totally ignore: Whenever more law abiding honest citizens are allowed to carry concealed guns in public, crime goes down. This has occurred in every state that has eased restrictions against the carrying of concealed handguns.

2. I think the misunderstanding between hiredgoonz and kaos was that kaos misunderstood hiredgoonz's comment on "chambering a round" to mean loading the weapon. It's obvious from the discussion that hiredgoonz simply meant working the action to load a round from the already loaded magazine into the firing chamber (racked). Keeping an empty chamber under the firing pin is very good sense in most cases, although most revolvers and some semiauto pistols (I think) have a mechanism to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. I keep the firing chamber empty on my pump and semiauto shotguns, but with their magazines loaded. Conversely, I keep all six chambers loaded on the revolvers I keep around the house for self defense.

3. As for treating guns like cars, check out the chart at CARS vs. GUNS: The Liberals are Right (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2003) and Treating Guns like Cars (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=1243) by Michael Mitchell at KeepAndBearArms.com (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/default.asp). Here are just a few of the ramifications of doing so: (a) No minimum age or license needed to purchase one, (b) No license needed for private use - ie; license only needed when used on government property, (c) No waiting period to purchase one, (d) Guns could be owned by felons, (e) They could be taken into any city anywhere in the country, and even to school, (f) Safe use would be taught in schools, (g) Virtually everyone would own at least one, and (h) The number of accidental deaths would soar from 900 per year to 41,200 (1998, National Safety Council).

4. Here's a quote for Ghost_Hacker, "Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

5. In almost all cases of lawful civilian use (about 2,500,000 each year), guns are used to prevent violence. Only criminals use guns to commit violence, and it has always been illegal for criminals to possess guns. There are already more than 20,000 gun laws on the books, and yet the government wants to pass more! KeepAndBearArms.com (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/default.asp) has only been archiving articles submitted by readers about guns saving lives for the past three or four months, and they've already got hundreds of them at: Guns Save Lives Stories (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcInfoBase.asp?CatID=43).

6. To YODA74, the correct quote is: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin [Note: This sentence was often quoted in the Revolutionary period. It occurs even so early as November, 1755, in an answer by the Assembly of Pennsylvania to the Governor, and forms the motto of Franklin's "Historical Review," 1759, appearing also in the body of the work. ~~ Frothingham: Rise of the Republic of the United States, p. 413.]

Of course there will always be some people who want to outlaw anything and everything that's dangerous, including even power tools. Check out Mothers Insisting on Licensed Tools (MILT) (http://www.frenchu.com/tpg/drill.html). http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

Now, where was that thread on Hard Drive configuration...

-- Ron

[This message has been edited by RKBA (edited 09-02-2001).]

[YODA74]

RKBA Welcome to PC Guide, I Can see you have done your home work. Thank you for correcting the B.F.( quote )Get out there and post your problem on your PC. Good links by the way! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

[yawningdog]

RKBA- You've crafted a fine post and I salute you and welcome you to this forum. And I especially appreciate grammar, spelling, and syntax.

But I believe you've misrepresented the bible verse you quoted. I'm think this verse has little to do with arming oneself, but with trust in Jesus. The previous verse says "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And the disciples replied in the negative.

This suggests to me that this was not exactly a standing order, but a preparatory instruction in order to better equip the apostles for spreading the gospel.

I know this topic is likely to be controversial, so responses may be e-mailed to me, if preferred. I don't want to hijack this thread, or be the one to start a holy war.

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Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to use the net, and he wont bother you for weeks.

[Ghost_Hacker]

Folks have taken passages out of the Bible and using them to support this and that for a long time. It's easy to do once you remove the passsage from the context of the rest of the document. ( one reason I never bother doing so.)

I ask you this.

Did Jesus carry a sword?
Was he less safe for doing so?

If its wrong for one person to do a thing, then it must be wrong for another to do the same.

Hand guns are for killing people. The right to own hand guns is the right to kill. Is this what you wish to protect? If so that is one sad statement IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

I find it interesting that "pro-gun" folks always have this element of "fear" in their statements. Fear of crime or goverment, yet they also know of the Bible. Well the Bible teaches that there is nothing to fear.

People who have mastered this have accomplished great things.

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"



[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 09-02-2001).]

[RKBA]

Ghost_Hacker and yawningdog,

Thank you for the welcome. I will get around to that post about disk configuration soon, but I feel it's only polite to first read some of the other posts to see if my question has already been answered somewhere.

Regarding guns and religion: If I were omnipotent, I wouldn't need to carry a sword or gun either http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif, but I'm not so I think it's good advice to carry one.

As for the broader point of "context", Luke 22:36 seemed to me to be a warning that the disciples were going to be needing swords this time (ie; when He sent them out before without purse, scrip, and shoes they lacked nothing - but this time they're going to be needing swords). In any case, it was just one of many examples of scriptural references to self defense. Many more, including the views of some of the clergy can be found at: Christianity & Guns (https://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcInfoBase.asp?CatID=81).

Ghost_Hacker said: "Hand guns are for killing people. The right to own hand guns is the right to kill. Is this what you wish to protect?"

Yes, precisely. Although there are many other uses for them besides killing people. Many like the competition of target practice, and some take large caliber handguns when they're out in the wilds and might be subject to unexpected attack by bears or other wild animals. The police kill people all the time in shootouts with criminals. Is that necessarily bad? Would you send the police out to confront criminals without a firearm? Would you want to confront a criminal without a firearm? What if he/they were attempting to kill you or rape your wife or children? I don't consider that sad at all, I consider it justifiable homicide.

As for fear, I doubt that I'm any more afraid than the next person. In fact, I'm probably a little less afraid than most people because I have firearms at the ready and have taken other security measures as well. I'm 55 and have pretty bad arthritis, so I probably wouldn't be able to do much for my own self defense with my fists - especially if the intruder were armed. I live in a pretty safe neighborhood with very little crime, but even so it does sometimes occur. My neighbor's house was burglarized a few years ago for example. If someone broke into my home, I would be virtually helpless without a firearm because of my arthritis. A firearm makes me a lot more "equal" to the intruder. Bad things do sometimes happen, regardless of what the Bible teaches.

Regards,

-- Ron

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Centerfire (http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/) ‘‘The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.’’ -- Thomas Jefferson

[This message has been edited by RKBA (edited 09-02-2001).]

[Ghost_Hacker]

I can understand your reason for wanting to carry a gun. What is sad is that in this country people feel they can't be safe in their own homes without one. That they must kill to live. ( I wonder if other poeple in other countries think this way. Of course they might not have our high rate of crime. Hmmmmmm.............)


Man in his present state does have reasons for the "good" use of guns. As in self protection either personel or national. This does not mean that it is right to kill, just that we as a race have not moved forwarded enough to see that.

This is all "high plane" stuff......

On a more "real" level, I belive that the first step to getting rid of a violent society is the removal of hand guns. Or maybe the "worship" of them.

IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"

[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 09-02-2001).]

[RKBA]

Have you noticed though, that as England and Australia (to name just two examples) have enacted more and more stringent gun control laws, crime rates have skyrocketed? See for example:

Did British gun control work? (http://www.vny.com/cf/News/upidetail.cfm?QID=196349)
Suburbs are hit by sharp rise in street crime (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-20384,00.html)
A nation of criminals (http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=513031)
Violent crime and street theft soar (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-68965,00.html)
Crime and Justice in the United States and in England and Wales, 1981-96 (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/contents.htm)
Australia: The Results Are In (http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/aus.html)
Western Australia and the fewer guns myth (http://www.ssaa.org.au/ilanov99.html)

Actually, I think the reason for higher crime rates is mostly crowding, and perhaps the fact that morality seems to no longer be taught to children. It's well known that the more individuals of virtually any species that are crowded into a smaller area, the more aggressive they become, and that the crime rate in cities is much greater than in more rural areas. I agree it's sad, but I believe that getting rid of handguns and other firearms would only increase the number of victims, and that has been born out in the examples above and in the studies in John Lott's book " More Guns, Less Crime." (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226493636/thesit)

-- Ron

P.S.
Does anyone know if HTML is enabled on this board? I'm not able to find any mention of it anywhere except in the FAQ's which just say it's available only if enabled by the board administrator. Also, What's with the double-apostrophe followed by 'M' combination. Every time I post them together, they both disappear???

[This message has been edited by RKBA (edited 09-02-2001).]

[kaos]

I find it interesting that "pro gun" folks always have this element of "fear" in their statements. Fear of crime or government, yet they also know of the bible. Well the bible teaches there is nothing to fear.

roflmao. I find it interesting that bible thumpers always have to include religion in their statements. There has never been a time in your life you've been afraid? Religion should be kept out of this, religion is only for people to gain $$$ by playing on other peoples fears and has nothing to do with this.
You speak of fear of crime like taking guns away from honest people will make things better. Look at some statistics from the countries I mentioned previously, and you will see that there is a difference in crime rates.

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Linux Freak!
Be a leader not a lamb,
Look to the Penguin.

[This message has been edited by kaos (edited 09-03-2001).]

[RKBA]

Kaos,

Yep, I agree. I didn't want to make an issue out of it, but I'm an atheist myself. That doesn't prevent me from having some knowledge of the Bible however (contrary to what most religious fanatics think), and my knowledge of the Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with my pro-self-defense stance as Ghost_Hacker implied. The only reason I included the Luke 22:36 quote was for Ghost_Hacker's benefit, since he seems to be a "believer."

-- Ron

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Centerfire (http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/) ‘‘The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.’’ -- Thomas Jefferson

[yawningdog]

Please,no personal attacks.

I am a Christian. It's my way of life. To say that it's important isn't accurate. It's the only thing that really matters. It also makes me a member of the only demographic which is politically correct to hate.

To me, virtually every topic has to do with this. I'll include these references for as long as Pete will allow it, and I make no apology.

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Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to use the net, and he wont bother you for weeks.

[YODA74]

Boy is this getting long (85)posts Guess well make it one more~~~~
Laws on paper Do not Exceed the laws of Existance! That ought to clear things up. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/cool.gif

[pjungwirth]

thought this should be continued in a new thread. . . .

Paul

[Ghost_Hacker]

There has never been a time in your life you've been afraid? Religion should be kept out of this, religion is only for people to gain $$$ by playing on other peoples fears and has nothing to do with this.

I have never talked about "religion". Don't make the mistake of thinking all things spritual have to do with "religion". However since most people get their spritual ideas from the Bible. I use it to point out certain truths. I can go much higher on the "spritual" realm than I have. Most of that discussion would have little to do with the Bible and might pull ideas from other faiths.


As for fear, no not in a long time. I lost most of it when I was younger, the details of which I will not bore you with. I'm not perfect as I still have other "issues". (I have not learned to "turn the other cheek" for instance.)But thats another thread. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif


As for guns consider this. In most cases any gun you buy will out live you. Can you say that the 2nd or 3rd or even the 4th person to own that gun will be as "good" as you? The more guns that are bought , the more that are made and placed out in the "market". Go down to the inner city and count the number of gun shops, then ask your self is this a safe 'hood?
Has the current right to own a gun made these folks any safer?
Or is your idea of "good folks" only apply to folks how live in a certain area of town?
Crime is not just a matter of guns nor is a safe 'hood just a matter of "self-protection".


You don't put out a fire by throwing more fuel on it. IMHO http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Comment heard from a Klingon programmer.

"Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!"




[This message has been edited by Ghost_Hacker (edited 09-05-2001).]

[YODA74]

http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif IN the south we have a saying (Being in the Bible belt)


Praise the lord And pass the Bullets Please. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Bullwinkle]

First and foremost, the 2nd amendment is intended to enable the citizenry to keep a tyranical government out of power; and to overthrow such a government should the need be. The fact that today's citizens no longer have the means to do so is evidence that our Constitution has been subjugated by a corrupt legislature and judiciary. The Right to protect one's life and property is a GOD given right. In the era's gone by that means was by sword and later musket. Today's citizen armory of deer rifles and shotguns pale in comparison to M-16s, grenades, blow torches, and land mines. Anyone who would say there is no need for an armed citizenry is not at all informed. And blind to everything around them. Sorry if that means you; but, you'll be the first in the stockades. Gun control does work! Ask any dictator!

[Arctic Silver]

My Libertarian two cents: We need the Second Amendment to ensure the rest of our Constitutional Rights.

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The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.