WHAT?

[jabarnutcase]

Well, I guess those knuckleheads in San Francisco that ruled it was "Unconstitutional" to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom -(Because of the reference to God),will have to become beggers for their well being from now on.

Last time I looked, the US currency said "In God We Trust" somewhere.

Sorry, I know I should not bring up politics here- And feel free to delete my post-
Just had to "Get it off my chest"
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif


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"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems and they never come out again"

[HewittC4]

I pledge allegence to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republlic
For which it stands
One nation, under which every deity you should choose to worship, if you choose to do so
In liberty
And justice for all (I just hope Metallica doesn't sue me for using the title of one of their CDs)

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Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously and change the subject

[Flick]

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals made a rather logical legal ruling. All they said was that the U.S. Congress violated the First Amendment to the Constitution which in part states that Congress "...make no law respecting an establishment of religion." A 1954 Act of the U.S. Congress added the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance. Religion is a very personal thing and should be left that way. Practice your religion on your own time and in your own space. Don't force it upon the public at large. Also, I think we need to review some history.

Without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God." The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments. Most of our Founding Fathers categorically rejected Christianity. Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Washington and most others thought Christianity was absurd and stated so many times in their writings. The USA was not founded by Christians and is not a Christian nation.

Clearly the U.S. Constitution not only allows for the freedom of religion, but also the freedom from religion. And that's the truth.

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Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati

[Ghost_Hacker]

I would be far more worried about little "Billy" being able to read and write at a 12th grade level when he's in 12th grade, than rather he got to recite the POA when he was 7.


I was watching George Carlin last night and he said something that was so true. "with non-improtant things you have lots of choices...Ice cream for example 31 flavors, but when it come to politcal parties the choice comes down to 2". Same thing can sort of be said for important issues and not-so-important ones. The important issues get a few minites of air time and the not-so-important are talked about for days.

[kenz]

Though not a USA citizen, may I comment, and hopefully not cause offence.
The USA National Anthem contains the line 'In God is our Trust' is that now illegal ?
When we lived in the US the school our children attended told us that they would not have to pledge allegiance to the flag if we did not want them to as we were from NZ. We said they should still participate because, a) we were guests in the USA, and b) the spirit of the POA and Anthem are the same as that of many countries and call on its citizens to recognise the need to show respect for the country's history, their fellow citizens and their responsibilities to the society we live in.

I feel sorry for those people who spend so much time tearing down the values of generations be it POA, Anthems, marriage, etc for no good reason when, if they are so articulate, they would be better to be fighting for better health care, education etc.

I also wonder if these legal eagles would happily defend the executives that have ripped of the savings and pension funds of workers/small investors of Enron and WorldCom.

I suppose I will get blasted by this response but what the heck

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There's no future in tomorrow - it'll soon be a thing of the past

[jabarnutcase]

Flick-
The part of the "Logic" I don't see concerning the 9th Circuit court is this: Why stop there?
I'll bet they don't have a problem spending or recieving currency that has "In God We Trust" printed on it. Should our kids have to be subjected to this "filthy" money?
While we're at it- Let's ban certain songs like "America the Beautiful"-It's not fair our children have to be subjected to that either.
By the way, the kids weren't forced to join in.
The amazing thing to me about this is that they found it " uconstitutional".

At any rate, it will most likely be overturned, as the 9th district has the distinct honor or being overturned more than any other circuit in the country-( According to the news last night).

Well, now that I've started this, (and I probably shouldn't have), I will stay out of it. Like it says in the beginning of this forum when you start a post, this is one of those subjects that people have been disagreeing on for centuries. And people will continue to disagree until the end of time.
http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

(Edit) NO hard feelings! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems and they never come out again"

[This message has been edited by jabarnutcase (edited 06-27-2002).]

[Eutychus]

I'll skip the debate about historical revisionists and the true historical origin of the term "establishment of religion" as it related to state sponsored churches (and, yes, I know there were a number of deists numbered among the founding fathers).

I just think it is at the very least interesting that this has come about so soon after 9/11. Some people who were weeping over the singing of "God Bless America" a few short months ago are back to demanding that God stay out of our affairs.

If the court and its supporters are right on the point that it is unacceptable to place children in the position of opting of saying the pledge, then, perhaps, we should eliminate the whole thing. There is a well-known and sizable religious group in our country that considers the pledge of allegiance in ANY FORM to be a form of false worship and they are forbidden from reciting it. By the court's logic, that group's belief that our POA is an establishment of a religion, with or without the phrase "under God", should be grounds to outlaw it completely.

It must be a tough job being God; He gets blamed for not stopping all the evil committed by the exercise of human free will, yet He is expected to have no part in or official recognition by public human activities. Refusal to recognize God's blessings and protection on our country reminds me of many people's attitude about the Y2K bug. Since they saw nothing bad happen in January 2000 as a result of the bug, they don't believe it was ever a real threat and that the techies really didn't fix anything. Had the electronic world come to a halt, then the techies would have all been cursed as incompetent and/or evil.

[Flick]

Hi Eutychus! You are making a huge and far reaching assumption. You must prove that God (any God) exists. Hasn't been done and will never be done. Also, please don't say, "Well you can't prove God doesn't exist.". The reality is that God is Santa Claus, Satan, Superman, Secret Squirrel and Under Dog. Nothing more and nothing less. You may need your God to fear that you must be moral. I am moral and kind without that fear. I call it being nice.

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Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati

[saphalline]

Originally posted by Flick:

You must prove that God (any God) exists.

If I may take a line from the movie Contact in response to this: "Can you prove that you loved your father?"

Hasn't been done and will never be done.

Well now, by the above logic, if people can prove to other people that they love them (a very difficult thing to do given that the emotion of love is so darn complicated) then by extension, it should also be possible to prove the existence of any God. Of course, whether or not anybody believes you is another story...

As for me, tho, I won't even go there. I'm too smart for that! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"No, we do not gnaw on our kitty." - Dr. Evil

[Anubis]

Well, if the 3 judges that made this rather obnoxious ruling think "Under God" in the POA is unconstitutional then so be it. BUT I think they should have their assets taken and pay stopped. The money they used has "In God We Trust" on it, by their above ruling "Under God" is unconstitutional so "In God We Trust" is much more unconstitutional. So therefore the assets are unconstitutional as is their rights to hold onto the assets.

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I can feel the wheel, but I can't steer
When my thoughts become my biggest fear
Ah, what's the difference, I'll die
In this sick world of mine

[Paleo Pete]

This is the kind of topic that has a very strong tendency to stir up heated debates, so I wanted to post a reminder before it gets out of hand...

Please keep it civil...

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If your nose runs and your feet smell...
You're built upside down!
Note: Please post your questions on the forums, not in my email.

Computer Information Links (http://www.dreamwater.com/paleopete/computer.htm) has been moved, please update your bookmarks.

[malcore]

This is what I love about America, the agree to disagree ideal. Free exchange of thoughts on any matter, whether vital or not.

As I am not an American, I will voice no opinion on the matter.I'll just say this to all:

You are so right; so incontestably right. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Eutychus]

Flick, you and I both will have all the proof we need 5 minutes after our heart stops. It was not my intention to debate the existence of God or to evangelize; I just was struck by the fickleness of the American public. I didn't even consider posting the topic, even though I was aware of it earlier in the day.

But what's with the fear thing? You sure have missed the whole concept of Christianity. I know it is central to other belief systems, but one of the most used phrases uttered by God, His angels, and Jesus in the Bible is, "Fear not." Perhaps the most recognized verses in the New Testament begins, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." I will guarantee you that, while fear might get your attention (i.e. lots of praying going on in a crippled aircraft, sinking ship, battlefield), it certainly will not keep you faithful.

Why would I fear my loving heavenly Father? I don't in the sense you mean. The term in Bible is more like awe or a respect for who He is; the same kind of respect you have for a police officer or a courtroom judge about to determine your future.

But if it gives you any comfort, both Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 say, "...There is no God..." (But I wouldn't try to use that in a debate against His existence without knowing the rest of the verses.) http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Flick]

I did not say this but one of our Founding Fathers did. Guess which one.

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."




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Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati

[jabarnutcase]

Hey- Guess what people!
This debate may become somewhat obsolete.
It seems that the ruling has been "Put on hold" after the enormous negative response of the American people-( Not to mention the President and Congress).

I take that back, the debate will never actually end, but at least those knuckleheads in San Fran may have come to their senses.

So, maybe we can move on to something else http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif
Pete- Sorry about this. I figured this would happen when I posted it- Just couldn't help it.

(Edit) Woops- Almost forgot: Have a GREAT day- and enjoy your freedom http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

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"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems and they never come out again"

[This message has been edited by jabarnutcase (edited 06-28-2002).]

[Eutychus]

Flick, it seems a little less than "nice" to attack my beliefs. (What next, my mother wears combat boots?) It really does nothing in the way of supporting your views, and sounds just a trifle, let's say, intolerant. That groups would pervert Christianity in no way diminishes its validity. Flat-earther beliefs and other such groups do not invalidate true science.

But before I shut up, I want to revisit the fear aspect one more time because it is not the first time it has been thrown at me in this forum. It was so foreign to my faith that I didn't quite get what you were alluding to. The essence of Christianity is this: There is no cosmic scale that weighs my good deeds against my bad. Both Old & New Testaments teach that we are incapable of measuring up to God's standard of perfection. One sin, no matter how small, would tip such a scale so far that an otherwise "good" life could not make up for it. Absolute perfection in the matter of actions and deeds are required to enter heaven. Christianity teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty required by God for my disobedience. By receiving Him as my Lord, God accepts that as payment for my past and future imperfections. All good deeds that result from my becoming a believer come from the heart, not in anticipation of reward or for gaining cosmic brownie points to miss hell.
= = = = =

Again, I honestly had no intention of making this a platform to preach at anyone. (I have never cared for people who walk up and announce, "You are going to hell if you don't join my church." Jesus didn't greet people that way.) However, when I am addressed and my beliefs are misrepresented I feel that I should be allowed to correct such statements.

[Flick]

I apologize Eutychus . I did not intend to attack your beliefs. I am sorry you took it that way. What concerns me Eutychus, is that so many people labor under the false impression that the USA is a "Christian nation" and was founded as such and that the Bible was an inspiration to our founders. In fact the USA is not now nor has it ever been a "Christian nation". As just one example, the "Treaty of Tripoli" was written during the Washington administration but was not passed by the Congress until the Adams administration. John Adams added these words to the treaty, "The government of the Untied States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." In short order the treaty was passed with a unanimous vote in the U.S. Senate in 1797.

It is wonderful that you have religious beliefs. I have them too. I feel very certain that my beliefs differ from your beliefs. If I was very thin skinned, I might look upon your statement (Flick, you and I both will have all the proof we need 5 minutes after our heart stops.) as an attack on my beliefs. It goes both ways.

The USA government needs to steer clear of religion. The USA is based upon the law of man.

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Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati

[Eutychus]

Flick, I think we are now on more common ground. I don't think anyone will dispute that large numbers of the early European settlers came to this land to escape religious persecution. Because most came from Europe, many of their charters and founding declarations were made in the name Christianity and most of our laws come from that world view. But while our government bodies generally make some acknowledgement of God, I can think of no official document of the US government that proclaims this nation to be Christian. As you mentioned, deism can clearly be attributed to some of the founding fathers (Jefferson for example).

In all honesty, I think that the secularization of nearly every aspect of our country has hurt far more than helped our society. But I agree in principle that even if 99.9% of our population were practicing Christians that we are not a Christian nation, even though we can trace its influence throughout our history. The Constitution and laws do not make Christianity a condition of citizenship, service in the government or Armed Forces, ownership of land or goods, or any other role in society. It is not illegal to be Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, atheist, etc. - and it is not illegal to convert to another religion. (In fact some feel that most any belief system is embraced or tolerated except Christianity.)

I have read that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US. Should they or any other religion reach a majority, I would count on our Constitution and the body of law to allow me to continue to practice my faith without official persecution or unreasonable limits. "Free excercise" includes all religions or no organized religion. With our diverse culture, the overwhelming majority believes in a Supreme Being, so I'm sure that prevailing sentiment will keep the current pledge intact for the forseeable future. However, I would not be surprised to live to see the phrase "under God" removed, as much as I would personally hate to see it happen.
= = = = = = = =

Wow! It sure is a challenge to be civil about something one feels strongly about. I stumble into such debates every once in awhile without really wanting to and usually end up with lots of bruises. But, Flick, I must say that you have been more a gentleman than most who have taken the other side than I've been on.

[kayofcircles]

We live in a country composed of many different beliefs and lack thereof. And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else..which means that my rights are based on the same stuff as the rights of those with whom I do not agree. I have to defend their rights so as to be entitled to mine.

I do have two thoughts on this particular issue, though. One, this particular father says he did this for his daughter...and I cannot believe that he thought it through because I am pretty sure that not only is he trying to "impose" his lack of belief on his daughter, but he has probably caused her a great deal of grief. This is a selfish act on his part.

Secondly, I saw a thing on PBS where they were saying that Washington is totally focused on the war against terrorism..while most of us out in the country are a wee bit more concerned about the economy, job security, retirement savings, health care, etc and etc. And in New Mexico..it's about the drought too. The California court's decision is probably going to be overturned shortly anyway...so this is more about the media stirring up controversary and diverting attention away from the important issues. Again.

[Lucias_Clay]

It seems funny to me that when people quote the first amendment to, say keep prayer and the reading of bibles out of schools and public places they tend to leave out half of the first sentence.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

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"....I'm tired of being lonesome, ornery and mean." (Waylon Jennings)(Rest in Peace my friend.)

[This message has been edited by Lucias_Clay (edited 06-29-2002).]

[Flick]

Originally posted by HewittC4:
I pledge allegence to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republlic
For which it stands
One nation, under which every deity you should choose to worship, if you choose to do so
In liberty
And justice for all (I just hope Metallica doesn't sue me for using the title of one of their CDs)

Here is the new version:

I pledge allegence to the flag
Of the United States of America
And to the republlic
For which it stands
One nation, under God, damn it
With liberty
And justice for all.



http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/eek.gif

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Quondo Omni Flunkus Mortati

[yawningdog]

"It is impossible to rightly govern without God and the Bible"
-George Washington

"The constitution was written for the governance of a moral and religeous people, and is wholly unsuitable for any other."
-John Adams

While Thomas Jeffersom was president, exactly two books were required reading in Washington D.C. schools. One was Watts Hymnal, the other was the king James Bible.

I could go on for pages and pages, but I don't like long posts. Suffice it to say that anybody who doesn't think this nation wasn't built on Christian principles simply hasn't studied history thoroughly. (Forgivable, to the extent that one considers the state of schools nowadays.)

[HewittC4]

I think that the father's lawsuit is about as unAmerican as you can get. This country was founded on religious tolerance. We are free to believe what we want, whether you believe in God or not.

What this father is teaching his daughter is that if someone believes something other than what you believe, do whatever it takes to stop them. Sue them, harrass them, commit hate crimes, if necessary, until your beliefs are the only ones that are allowed.