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Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 05:01 PM
Okay, I have NO idea as to what is wrong with my computer. I know it's the D drive though, which luckily I can unhook and still USE my computer. Every time I try to boot my computer with the D drive connected it tells me that Windows was not properly shut down (even after a hard boot) and that it needs to run Scan Disk. When I press a key to run scan disk it skips the C drive and goes straight to the D drive where it hangs. If I select the More Info option it tells me that it's "Out of Memory" and then exits Scan Disk; at which point I get nothing more then a message telling me that it's safe to turn off my computer or to press Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot. If I reboot with the D drive still connected it does the same exact thing. If I unhook it I don't get the windows shut down message and it boots into windows properly. Any ideas as to what happened or better yet, what I can do to fix this? I tried unplugging all the cables like I had to do when it wasn't recognizing the C drive a couple of times (due to an overfull drive, not the problem this time) but that didn't do anything. I'm at a complete loss. Thanks.

Just in case, I'm running Win95 and what caused me to discover this problem was being forced to reboot after Explorer errored on me and shut down (not IE). Up until that point I'd been downloading things to and using files from the D drive without a problem. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/confused.gif

ReddDogg
09-06-2000, 05:31 PM
Have you tried disconnecting CD Rom and making second drive your secondary master or secondary slave? I know that is how i run diagnostic on drive that won't boot, also how I copy files before I networked my house together. It sounds like your bios is trying to boot from it, you might go in there and make sure it is set to boot from your c: drive. It might be trying to boot d: first, then c:. It sounds like you have windows installed on both drives and it had been using the d: drive for windows and now that os is not working correctly.

------------------
Joe Redd
MCP

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 06:01 PM
No, the OS is only on the C drive, when booting it doesn't look at the D drive at all normally, the BIOS is set to check the A drive and then the C drive. There are very few actual programs ON the D drive in fact.

DANQU
09-06-2000, 06:07 PM
Chelle the Cat

It sounds like to me that you have set the jumpers on the D: drive to the master setting.
If the D: drive shares the same ribbon cable as the C: drive set the D: drive jumpers to the Slave setting.
Dan

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 06:33 PM
I haven't changed any settings on the drive. The drive went from working one minute to not working the next. When I boot up without the D drive connected it still knows it's supposed to be a pirmary slave drive. This whole thing came about after the Explorer crash and I rebooted my PC. I've had Explorer crash before, and rebooting never did anything like this, it always worked perfectly afterwards. So I merely did that, rebooted thinking that everything would be fine after I had done so, but this problem arose.

No settings are different, jumpers are exactly as they were before, the only thing I've canged at the moment is that the power cord for the D drive has been pulled to allow me to get into Windows. I haven't changed anything in the BIOS, Windows, or anywhere else. If I had, I could understand there being a problem, but all I had done was reboot the machine after the crash. I've had this computer for about 4 years now, it's been working with the D drive in the slave setting for 3 years. This is the first time this has ever happened. It's not a new drive, it was installed a while ago and was perfectly functioning before all this. Heck, before the reboot I was using the drive.

dale
09-06-2000, 07:15 PM
I would have thought Redd's advice would have be right on. But since you are quite sure its not a jumper thing, then maybe your BIOS lost its information on what your drives are. Go back to BIOS setup and go through auto-detect and make sure it sees both drives and they have the parameters that makes sense.

Its also possible a virus or the IE crash in someway corrupted your Master Boot Record on one or both drives.

dale

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 07:24 PM
Dale,

Okay, that last one makes more sense, since the drives are showing up correctly in the BIOS. When it freezes in the Scan Disk it's during the FAT check. So, is there anyway I can force it past this to try and fix the problem... or just a way to fix the problem in general?

Chelle

dale
09-06-2000, 08:10 PM
If scandisk is stuck on the FAT, then you indeed might have a corrupt data block. If so you might have to go and reformat the drive (maybe even a low-level format) and reload. You might try running Norton Utilities on it and see if it can work around the problem you are having. If a datablock in the FAT is corrupt you could end up losing a lot of stuff. But it still baffles me that you can unplug the D Drive and it boots cleanly. Just for grins, try making your D: Drive the primary master and unplug your current C: drive and see what it does. Also, while you have it configured this way, boot from a floppy and run scandisk on the drive (make sure you have scandisk on your floppy). The other thing to try is also to boot from floppy and scandisk your original C: drive instead of trying to run scandisk from the harddrive itself.


dale

DANQU
09-06-2000, 09:00 PM
Run a thorough scandisk to check the disk surface for errors
Then run defrag

Charles Kozierok
09-06-2000, 09:13 PM
Tough problem. If you are getting stuck on the scandisk in DOS as Windows boots, try this: interrupt it by hitting a key and cancel it. Boot up Windows and try running scandisk there. It may be able to fix the problem.
If that fails, try using a more advanced scanner like Norton Disk Doctor. It sounds like file system damage.
Or try a drive diagnostic program from whatever company made that drive...

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 09:49 PM
Dale:
Okay, well, for starters I can't afford to reformat the drive at this point. If I can get around this without doing so all the better. I have several thousand dollars worth of data on this drive that I really need to keep in tact if possible. I can give it a shot to make the D the primary drive, but it comfuses me as well that simply unplugging the power makes the system boot perfectly (sans the D drive of course).

DANQU:
I can't access the drive at all to run Scan Disk on it at this point. I'm still trying to find a way to make the drive boot so I can do that and see what the problem might be.

ixl:
When I interrupt the DOS Scan Disk I get a message telling me that it's safe to turn off my computer or that I can do a Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot. I can't get into Windows without pulling the power plug and thus disabling the drive. Not to mention I don't know who made the drive, it was bought at a Chips Mart dock sale without any papers.

ReddDogg
09-06-2000, 10:04 PM
Here is some food for thought. Where I work, I talk to people that have some very unusual things happen for no apparent reason. This topic fits with some of those. What I would try doing is to make that drive something other than your primary slave, to see if being in a new place on boot up gets you past the scandisk window. Also, does it let you boot from a boot disk? If you can boot from a boot disk into a dos command prompt, you can copy data onto another hard drive, and then reformat the problem drive. That takes a bit of dos know how. Another thing, and I hope someone else with either correct me or back me on this one, but you could take out batter and reseat battery on motherboard to reset bios back to factory settings and let it auto detect your drives again, but that is not something I am expert at, and since i am not the one with my head under the hood, you might ask for second opinion on that idea to make sure my logic is true. There is a big difference between what I would do and what I would tell other people to do, and the cmos battery in this case falls in the boarder between, so please, someone else give input on that idea.

------------------
Joe Redd
MCP

Charles Kozierok
09-06-2000, 10:07 PM
You should be able to determine what the drive type is by looking at its label, they are mostly well-marked. I'd recommend running a low-level diagnostic util at this point.
As for scandisk, never seen that behavior before. You mean that it starts up, begins scanning, you press space bar to interrupt it and it says you can shut down your PC? please explain exactly what you are seeing...

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 10:19 PM
Reddog:
That's one that I would be more comfortable letting my mother try out, since she is the one that built this machine. I did try to unplug the CD-Rom and move the D drive to the secondary master position but either I'm missing jumpers to do that or it just didn't work, but I got no result with it. I haven't tried making it the primary master yet.

ixl:
There actually isn't a lable on it. Weather there's information on it at my mother's apartment or not is another story, I'd have to ask her to look.
What it's doing is starting to boot like normal, then it tells me that Windows has been shut down improperly, that Scan Disk needs to be run, to hit any key to continue. Okay, so I hit a key to start Scan Disk, but instead of it trying to start with the C drive like normal it skips straight to D and hangs at 0% of the FAT check. At that point I have two choices. I can choose More Info or I can Exit Scan Disk. If I choose More Info a little window pops up saying Out of Memory. I can hit OK and then it takes me to a black screen that tells me it's safe to turn off my PC or to do Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot. Now, if I choose Exit it does the exact same thing, taking me to the black screen. I can't get to Windows at all. If I unplug the D drive's power cable then it doesn't do ANY of that and goes into Windows without a hitch.

ReddDogg
09-06-2000, 11:39 PM
I have one more question, sorry if it seems silly, but have you tried booting into safe mode? If you hold down on the left shift key during boot up and keep it held, it is supposed to bypass winders startup and head straight for safe mode. I don't remember right of hand if it will do that before or after it detects disk being improperly shutdown. Might be worth a shot.

------------------
Joe Redd
MCP

Chelle the Cat
09-06-2000, 11:50 PM
Reddog:

Yeah, did the F8 into Safe Mode, but it gave me the same message as trying to go into regular mode, about not having shut down properly. Not at all a silly question...

Chelle

ReddDogg
09-06-2000, 11:55 PM
wait, it gave you the same message while heading for safe mode, or it gave you the message after hitting f8? and, I was suggesting holding down the left shift key on the keyboard, which from what i have been told, bypasses more things than hitting f8 during startup, I know when my registry was corrupted on my laptop, left shift was only way to get to safe mode. Luckily, with windows Me you get this restore feature built in, and it works by the way, but that is another posting topic altogether. Anyway, I consulted some people at work, and that was their suggestion, go for the safe mode, of course, I thought of it before I asked them, but they thought it sounded like a good thing to try, the left shift approach. If not, the boot disk and copy things to other hard drive is only thing I see as feasible without reformat of drive.

------------------
Joe Redd
MCP

DANQU
09-07-2000, 08:36 AM
"I haven't changed any settings on the drive. The drive went from working one minute to not working the next."

"No settings are different, jumpers are exactly as they were before,"

"I did try to unplug the CD-Rom and move the D drive to the secondary master position but either I'm missing jumpers to do that or it just didn't work, but I got no result with it. I haven't tried making it the primary master yet."

To me it does sound like a jumper setting problem at this point of attacking the problem write down every thing you do so the process is not missed or repeated. Try finding jumpers from an older computer to make the D: drive secondary master.

Chelle the Cat
09-07-2000, 11:58 AM
Dan:

I think you are missing what I'm saying. I don't mean to sound snippy or rude, I appreciate people trying to help, but you're twisting my words around.

At the time of the problem first occuring I had done NOTHING to my machine other then a common reboot. I hadn't touched jumpers, cables, drives, or anything of the sort. It is NOT a jumper problem.

"I did try to unplug the CD-Rom and move the D drive to the secondary master position but either I'm missing jumpers to do that or it just didn't work, but I got no result with it. I haven't tried making it the primary master yet."

You can twist the above quote all you want, but the fact of the matter is, I was only telling ReddDogg that I had tried his suggestions... this was AFTER my drive had failed almost a cool 100 times. Again it is NOT a jumpers problem. I don't know what the problem IS, but I know what the problem ISN'T... Now, unless some thing changed the jumpers for me that's not the problem, and I have a hard time thinking that the jumpers would cause the probelm with Scan Disk I am having.

As I said, the drive was working normally prior to the reboot, and had been working for months before this point.

Charles Kozierok
09-07-2000, 12:41 PM
OK, first of all, "everyone remain calm". I know they say that right before a ship sinks too, but oh well. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

I have something that may help. You can disable automatic scanning by editing the MSDOS.SYS file in your C: root directory. So I would recommend this:

Boot to straight DOS; as you see the startup message hit "F8", and then hit "Shift-F5". That will bypass everything and dump you to DOS.
Type "cd \" if needed.
Type "attrib -r -h -s msdos.sys"
Type "copy msdos.sys msdossys.bu" to make a backup.
Type "edit msdos.sys". In the file, find "AutoScan=1" and change the "1" to "0". Change nothing else in the file.
Save the file.
Type "attrib +r +h +s msdos.sys". Don't forget this step!


Now reboot the machine, and scandisk should leave D: alone. Then try to run scandisk from Windows on that drive. Keep us posted.

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

[This message has been edited by ixl (edited 09-07-2000).]

DANQU
09-07-2000, 07:11 PM
Chelle

You are the one missing the point
Believe me I am not "twisting your words" but quoting them
Find the missing jumpers
Set D: drive to master
Remember to document every step so you can back track what you did in the past.



[This message has been edited by DANQU (edited 09-07-2000).]

Chelle the Cat
09-07-2000, 07:23 PM
Dan:

There are no missing jumpers to find. That's the point being missed here.
In the primary slave slot it HAS no jumpers on it.

And my mother, the one that built this computer, has already suggested trying ixl's suggestion.

DANQU
09-07-2000, 08:53 PM
"If I reboot with the D drive still connected it does
the same exact thing. If I unhook it I don't get the windows shut down message and it boots into windows properly."

At this point in your detective work, was the D: drive on the secondary controller or primary?

Are you stating that you have a C: D: hard drive and a CD-ROM all in the same computer running at the same time?

Dan

Chelle the Cat
09-07-2000, 09:53 PM
Dan:

My D drive has always been the primary slave, as the title of this topic states.

And yes, I have a C and a D drive, as well as not only a CD ROM, but a 4 disk changer CD ROM, and in fact, once I get this problem fixed I will be adding a thrid hard drive. There have been the two hard drives and CD ROM on this machine as long as it's been built and never once have I had a problem like this before.

And once my download is finished I will be trying the method suggested by ixl. I will post the results of that later.

DANQU
09-07-2000, 10:10 PM
"In the primary slave slot it HAS no jumpers on it. "

Basic 101 knowledge
You need jumpers to set it as a slave drive

No charge

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 12:22 AM
Dan:

Excuse me, as I said the drive has been working for MONTHS... with NO jumpers. Basic 101 knowldege, jumper settings vary from drive to drive, not all drives require jumpers for a slave position...

No charge

My mother is a software test engineer and builds PCs on the side, has been doing this for several years now and is the one that not only built my machine, but installed the drive. If you'd read everything I'd posted, you'd understand what it is I'm saying. The drive worked before Explorer crashed just a couple nights ago. It was after THAT that I lost access to the drive. If you're going to continue to give advice on this, please PLEASE read everything that I've said about the problem. I'm not a complete novice about these things. I'm trying to be as nice about this as possible...

Charles Kozierok
09-08-2000, 08:48 AM
Dan, I really don't think we need to get into the "Basic 101" types of comments here. Really doesn't help in any way.
Chelle, hang in there. We *will* get this figured out.

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Rossgr
09-08-2000, 01:20 PM
It was mentioned up thread and I think it is critical that you find a copy of the HD manufactures diagnostic software. Run that, see what it tells you. Since you have valuable data (Not Backed up!? shame on you)be very careful what you do. May be your best bet is to pull the drive and send it off to a data recovery service. Good luck

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 03:45 PM
ixl,

Okay, I tried the method you suggested, but when I looked at the
msdos.sys file there wasn't an AutoScan option. This is all my file
contains, maybe it will make sense to you.

[Paths]
WinDir=C:\WINDOWS
WinBootDir=C:\WINDOWS
HostWinBootDrv=C

[Options]
BootMulti=1
BootGUI=1
Network=1

I was able to access the drive from DOS however, I don't know if there's
anything I can do from there to try and fix it or not, but I still can't
get past the Scan Disk. I'm also getting a new message now after closing Scan Disk when it freezes. It's telling me that the file HIMEN.SYS is missing (???) even though it's not. Could that file be corrupted? I'm running Windows 94 Version 4.00.1111. I am now completely stumped...

Rossgr:
*hangs her head in shame* Yes, yes I know I should have backed up the drive somehow... Don't have a tape backup though, or a CD write, nor the multitude of floppy disk it would take (it's a 3gig drive) to do so. I was planning on trying out one of those i-net drives to see how that would work out but I'm afraid something would happen to the stuff even then. As for getting that information, I've been told there isn't any for this drive because of how it was bought. And, unfortunatly I can't afford a data recovery service at the moment. Catch 22 there, I'm broke until I finish building this client their site, all their information for that site is on the D drive that isn't working at the moment so I can't finish the site to get the money it would cost to do data recovery in that manner. I am hopping I can find some way to fix it without going to that extream.

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 03:47 PM
Ack! Windows 94 should be Windows 95 of course... slip of the finger there...

DANQU
09-08-2000, 03:53 PM
[

"not all drives require jumpers for a slave position..."

Yes, they do if not show me proof

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 04:03 PM
Dan:

This is the last time I'll reply to a message from you. The proof is in the fact that this drive was running PERFECTLY for a LONG time WITHOUT the jumpers. This drive, weither in my machine or another, has ALWAYS been in the slave setting and has NEVER had jumpers. This is the first time it has EVER had a problem. Enough said...

DANQU
09-08-2000, 04:09 PM
Things do not happen in a void
Someone changed something
It is very simple
A slave drive must have jumpers

Thanks for responding


[This message has been edited by DANQU (edited 09-08-2000).]

Charles Kozierok
09-08-2000, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by DANQU:
Things do not happen in a void
Someone changed something
It is very simple
A slave drive must have jumpers

Dan, she has already said that the drive:
[list=a]
Was working at one point; and
Can be seen from DOS.
[/list=a]
Neither of those would occur if the jumpers were set incorrectly, and jumpers don't change themselves. I agree that there is probably some way to change the jumpers on that drive, but it can be hard to identify the jumpers on some units, and for this problem it is simply not relevant.

The larger issue, however, is that you continue to harp on this matter after already suggesting it several times, being told by Chelle that this isn't the cause of the problem, and being asked by me to stop pushing the issue. I want people to feel comfortable posting their problems here, and not to feel like they will be browbeaten when they disagree with advice that they are given. So, as sad as it makes me to have to do this after the forums have been up only 12 days, I would like to formally ask you to please excuse yourself from this thread. Thank you.

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 04:29 PM
Okay, I lied... THIS will be the last response.
No, things don't happen in a void... damn I feel like I'm talking to my brother who can never admit that he might NOT know everything.

Let me paint a little picture for you. I live with my sister who doesn't know jack about computers. She barley knows how to turn mine ON let alone open a case and fiddle with jumpers. The only other ones here are my dog and her cat. Now, unless the cat and dog decided to open my case one night no one changed anything. In truth, this case has not been opened until 2 days ago when I STARTED asking for help about this problem for about 6 months. No, not ALL drives need jumpers in the slave settings. ANd I hate to break this to you, maybe you need to do a little searching on this sunject and inform yourself, but I've had more then a simple handful of people agree with me so far that no not all drives need jumpers to be a slave and that they do in fact vary from drive to drive as to weather or not it's necessary. You asked for proof... fine, here's proof since that seems to be the only way you'll know I'm right on this. Look at the URL i'm posting here and scroll down. It shows more then one brand drive that uses NO jumpers for slave setting. Have a nice day now... http://members.aol.com/mbs1058/ibm_jumpers.html

DANQU
09-08-2000, 04:31 PM
Charles
I am just saying that a Slave drive must have jumpers to work.
It was stated that their or not jumpers on this drive,
As far as I know that can cause a problem
And if not show proof
Dan

Charles Kozierok
09-08-2000, 04:32 PM
Chelle, Windows 95 doesn't put the AutoScan line in MSDOS.SYS apparently, but it should still support it. So take my directions from before, but insert a new line "AutoScan=0" after the "BootGUI" line. Don't forget the rest of those steps, and tell us if that gets you past the SCANDISK on D:.

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 04:36 PM
Ixl,

I want to appoligize myself actually. I could have just ignored him from the start, but in my frustration over this problem with my drive, and Dan's ingoring what I was stating I knew the problem wasn't (I might not know what IS wrong, but I do know enough to know what isn't) I handled things in a way that I shouldn't have. I deeply appologize for the trouble I seem to have caused here.

Chelle

Charles Kozierok
09-08-2000, 04:50 PM
Don't worry about it. http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/smile.gif Let's just all be friends and get back to the task at hand: fixing your problem! http://www.PCGuide.com/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

DANQU
09-08-2000, 04:51 PM
Where does it state that the slave drive does not need jumpers?

Chelle the Cat
09-08-2000, 07:38 PM
Ixl,

Well, I did as you suggested and added in the AutoScan=0 line which did sucessfully take me into Windows withou problem WITH access to the D drive. I did a virus scan, scan disk, and defragment and no errors were found on either drive. I'm at a complete loss as to what the heck is wrong. I still have access to the drive, and all the files are in tact. It's rather bizzare.

Chelle

ReddDogg
09-09-2000, 05:14 PM
Your problem reminds me of one commonly seen with dial up networking and connecting to the interent provider I work for. This is like a metaphor.

When you use the internet connection wizard in windows 95 and 98, it puts 5 checks in settings under the server types tab in the dun connection. Those 5 are, Log on to network, enable software compression, ipx/spx compatible protocol, netbeui, and tcp/ip. sometimes, you can leave these like that and dial into Bright.net. Most of the time, you cannot. However, some people who can dial in with those settings, one day all of a sudden can't, and to that one we have never found an answer. Windows has many mysterious things, but that is very interesting to see the fix that worked. I will definately put that in my archive of fixes that I can draw from when I get someone's computer on my workbench.

As for proof that not all hard drives need a jumper settings, i have a hitachi drive that doesn't have any jumper settings, it is supposed to auto detect. I never hooked it up as anything other than master primary, so I dont' know what it would do.



------------------
Joe Redd
MCP

Charles Kozierok
09-10-2000, 01:02 AM
How large is this drive, Chelle? There have been reports of problems with drives over 32 GB and Scandisk on Windows 95. Otherwise, it appears it could just be a Windows "glitch".
Incidentally, now that you have gotten things working again, you should re-enable AutoScan and see if you can boot normally. Leaving it off isn't an ideal long-term solution...

------------------
Charles M. Kozierok ( ixlubb@PCGuide.com )
Webslave, The PC Guide (http://www.PCGuide.com)
Comprehensive PC Reference, Troubleshooting, Optimization and Buyer's Guides...

Chelle the Cat
09-10-2000, 01:21 AM
Ixl:

The drive is only 3gig. I wish I could get a drive that was bigger, but for now this is it. We're working on backing the drive up to CD before adding the AutoScan=1 and if it goes back to the previous problem my mom was planning on upgrading to 98 for me and see if that helped. She thinks that the Explorer crash might have corrupted a windows file. At this point anything is possible I suppose. If the upgrad doesn't work, we're going to try a new D drive.