Norton Ghost /External HDD problems

[FastLearner]

Hi all. I have recently installed Norton Ghost on my laptop (from the System Works 2004 package) since I would like to be able to create image backups and store them on an external HDD. I have a 60GB TrekStor DataStation USB 2.0 external drive.

A little background:
I have successfully created and formatted 2 partitions on the external drive (one for a system backup and one for file backup, U and V drives in My Computer, respectively)) - both partitions are much larger than the partitions I'm trying to back up, BTW.

I backed up my files (from my D:\ drive) easily using Windows explorer (copy and paste), but I'm having problems using Ghost to create a drive image of my system partition (C:\ drive).

I'm getting the Error Code 40204 when I reboot into PC Dos mode, which suggests that the correct drivers are not loading at bootup. If I boot all the way into Windows, however, I see my drive (and its two partitions) under My Computer, and Device Manager shows all is working well. I can save to or retrieve data from either partition (both NTFS formatted). One strategy I thought of that might fix the problem would be to let Norton Ghost create a boot disk with USB drivers on it, but I don't have a floppy drive on my laptop, so that wouldn't do me much good.

Any suggestions? I'd really be able to sleep better at night if I could back up my data (oh yeah, and be able to restore it too... )

Thanks.

[Sylvander]

The problem is that the external drive can only be accessed when Windows has been loaded, the USB drivers loaded, and the external drive then accessible.
If you tell Ghost to save a backup [of C:] to a drive that cannot be accessed from DOS, then it will fail.
One solution is to tell it to save the backup image file to a partition on an internal drive that is accessible from DOS.
Then you could [from within Windows] move the file to the external drive.
But how then to use that file to restore the C: partition if Windows won't boot?
Ummmmm,
You could keep any old working backup of [a minimalist copy of] C: on a partition other than C: on an internal HDD, and restore that using a copy of Ghost run from a bootable CD made using "floppy emulation" [I'm no expert on that]. That because you have no FDD.
Then once that copy of Windows is restored and working you could boot into Windows, move a selected backup from the external drive to an internal drive, and then restore that using Ghost from your bootable CD.

Does that make sense to you?

If you know how to load USB drivers from a floppy, then perhaps you could include those on the bootable CD?

I have a similar situation to you except:
I'm using "HP Simple Backup" [run from "msconfig Diagnostic Mode"] to backup a minimalist C: partition to CD-RW disks.
I can restore that from the CD's using "HP Simple Backup" [run from "Disaster Recovery" floppies], and once Windows is working can access the external HDD and use "MS Backup" to make backups to files on the external HDD.
I've not yet tried restoring any of these, but see no reason why it wouldn't work.

[FastLearner]

Hi Sylvander. I guess that's what I had suspected all along. The web support forums are FULL of posts from people with USB external drive compatibility issues. I guess what you're saying makes sense, but it leaves me with a few extra questions.

1) Would the .gho image file on my internal drive need its own partition, or could I safely store that on my D:\ drive (which contains my personal files) and copy/paste it to my U:\ drive for redundancy?
2) I'm not too clear on the "restore" portion of all of this. Without a floppy disk, this could be a dangerous undertaking... even if I have a .gho image on my D: drive and my U: drive, if I can't load into Windows, I'm hurting. Or is this not the case?
3) Are there any programs that you're aware of that would not need to have Windows loaded in order to access my external drive? I like Ghost, but if it's not the right tool for the job...

[Sylvander]

First I should say that I'm no great expert on the use of backup imaging programs.

"Would the .gho image file on my internal drive need its own partition"
No, it just needs to be off the partition that it's going to be used to restore.
You cannot restore a partition that holds the image file your using to do that.

"could I safely store that on my D:\ drive"
Yes, if it's the C: partition your trying to restore.

"and copy/paste it to my U:\ drive for redundancy?"
You wouldn't need multiple backups on D: with identical copies of those on U:
You wouldn't need redundant copies.
The single backup on D: could be any old backup [that didn't need a copy on U:], just so long as it would make Windows boot.
Then you'd keep all the REAL backups of C: on U:
The versions that are important that is; that include all the stuff you really need.


" I'm not too clear on the "restore" portion of all of this."
That's not surprising; it's a rather convoluted process.
Here it is again:
1. If you cannot load the USB drivers in DOS, then you cannot access the external HDD using the DOS version of Ghost.
2. So the image file you intend to restore needs to be moved or copied from the external HDD [U:] to the internal HDD [D:] and that can only be done from within Windows [with the USB drivers loaded and the exernal drive accessible].
3. Once that's done then Ghost can be run from a floppy [or a substitute bootable CD] to restore C: using the image file on D:
4. If Windows won't boot you cannot do any of this.
5. So you keep permanently on the internal HDD [D:], some copy of a backup image of C:
This copy of C: is unimportant just so long as it will produce a bootable version of Windows that will give you access to the external HDD to retrieve a good backup of C:.

"Without a floppy disk, this could be a dangerous undertaking..."
You'd be ok if you could manage to make a bootable Ghost CD, or alternatively use a bootable Ghost floppy to make a bootable CD.
I was reading a post where Paul Komski + another were explaining how to do that. Search for his name and "floppy emulation".

"Or is this not the case?"
Correct, it's not the case.
So long as you have [on D:] an image of C: that will produce a bootable Windows, then you can boot into windows, retrieve a good backup of C:, then shut down, boot from the Ghost CD, and restore the selected image.
I suppose you could always keep a copy of the latest backup of C: on D: and keep all the older copies on U:

"Are there any programs that you're aware of that would not need to have Windows loaded in order to access my external drive?"
'Fraid I don't.
Do you have a CD or DVD burner?
Won't Ghost save the image file to optical disk[s]?
What I do is keep C: small [holds only "Windows" & "Program Files" folders + odds] and backup C: to CD-RW disks. So the essential backups are on CD's. Those give me a bootable restoration of Windows, then I can access the external HDD.
You should investigate the possibility of loading the drivers from the bootable Ghost CD.

I've been looking at EBCD from http://ebcd.pcministry.com/
Ghost could be added to that CD [and possibly the USB drivers too], but I haven't yet figured out how to do it.
Paul Komski knows, and I asked him to give a lecture in a thread.
He suggested I ask for help in a thread and others could help.
I'm trying to work up to that.
My understanding so far:
1. Download compressed archive and unzip it.
2. Add your own program files to a new folder that you add to the supplied folders.
3. Make alterations to the configuration files to include the new prog's.
4. Use the supplied executable to make those into an ".iso" file that you burn to CD [R or RW] using Nero or some other.
5. When the CD is booted the added prog's are on the menu and can be run by clicking on it. So Ghost could be one of those.

I have a working copy of the EBCD and it boots just fine, but seems rather strange to me. It includes "Image" which will make image file backups, but I cannot get it to work [just like Ghost & Drive Image & Partition Magic] because I have have "Dynamic Drive Overlay" software in use. It has 32 DOS progs included and lots of other stuff.

[FastLearner]

Hi Sylvander. Thanks for breaking that down in an easy-to-understand way.

hmmm. I do have a CD RW drive that I could also use, but then what would I need the external drive for then?... No, seriously, you're right in that creating backups on CD RWs might have been the way to go in my case, but I've done that on another system and the restoration from CD took forever - plus one needs to constantly swap CDs in and out. Not that it's a bad method, but it's the one I was trying to improve upon by setting myself up with an external drive. USB 2.0 is great as a connection type, but if it relies on the underlying (or should I say overlying) Operating System to function properly, then it's probably not the best choice for backups.

Anyway you were correct (as usual). I was able to successfully create a backup image of my C: drive and save it to my D: drive (took all of about 10 minutes, where writing directly to DVD with my desktop computer used to take over an hour). I then easily was able to copy and paste the files to my U:drive. I like your idea of using my D: drive for the most recent backup and the U: drive to contain a few older backups - thanks for that tip!

I guess all that's left for me to do now is to create a CD that I can boot from that can run Ghost in the event my Windows installation gets hosed. I'm going to do a search for that thread you mentioned by Paul K... Wish me luck. I'll let you know if I need some help translating Paul's instructions back down to my level...

[FastLearner]

Are you talking about thisthread?

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread...oppy+emulation

If so, I don't know if that's the answer to my problem. I actually don't want to boot into DOS, I would like to be able to boot into Norton Ghost if possible (as I used to be able to do with Ghost's boot floppies). Is it really true that Symantec does not offer such an image to download? Why not? It just does not make any sense to me that it should be so easy with Ghost to create a bootable floppy but make it so hard to create a bootable CD Rom for those without FDDs (to boot into Ghost). That looks like a heckuva lot of work just to make a bootable disk that brings me to DOS. And then what? How to start Ghost if the hard drive happens to be hosed and I'm trying to restore my system onto a new drive, for example? Maybe I will just use the CD RW drive for backups, but Symantec really needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that many newer laptops (unfortunately) don't come with FDDs, and provide a way to boot for these particular customers. Oh sure, I could get a USB Floppy Drive for my laptop, but then I've already (I think) wasted 100 bucks on an external USB drive.

[Sylvander]

There is yet another method of getting a bootable installation of Windows so as to gain access to the backups on U:

1. You copy the Windows [which version?] installation files to a partition other than C: and run the installation from there to confirm it [either that or register that as the location of the files]. A beneficial side effect of that is that whenever Windows needs any files from those it will fetch in a millisecond with no fuss.
2. Whenever you need a bootable installation of Windows [with USB drivers] you just re-format C: and run the installation from those copies of the files.
3. That gets you into Windows to fetch a suitable backup, and then you restore that, which gives you all the extras.
4. With that method you could use Windows own "MS Backup".

[Fruss Tray Ted]

What about Knoppix to run from the cd and access the external drive with that? Does anyone know off hand if Ghost will perform using Knoppix?

If all one needs to do is take an image and paste it to the C: drive, then I would think the 'portable penguin' would do the trick.

[Sylvander]

"Are you talking about this thread?"
Yes.

"I would like to be able to boot into Norton Ghost if possible (as I used to be able to do with Ghost's boot floppies)."
I'm no expert on this but:
I think it's possible to produce a bootable [Ghost] CD that behaves just like a bootable [Ghost] floppy; hence the "Floppy Emulation".
But I think that's wasting all that space on the CD.
That's why I like the ESCD.
Imagine booting from that and being presented with a menu of prog's that includes "Ghost". You choose Ghost and it runs and you do what needs done.
That CD could become your "Universal Fix-It CD".

"Is it really true that Symantec does not offer such an image to download?"
I believe so.
Some time back I searched for a backup prog that included the ability to make a bootable CD from which to run the prog to restore a backup in an emergency.
Came up with a modern German Prog; cannot remember its name at the moment. It looked pretty good. Could find it again if you want.

"Why not?"
Not up-to-date enough?
One of the others I noticed ran the restore prog from the HDD!
That's no good if the HDD is useless.

"How to start Ghost if the hard drive happens to be hosed and I'm trying to restore my system onto a new drive, for example?"
Like my son, you have no FDD, and in that situation you MUST have a bootable CD methinks. If your old HDD was finished and you fitted a new HDD, you'd need to install Windows using a bootable CD, then boot into Windows, fetch a backup from the external HDD onto one of your new partitions, and restore it using some program on a bootable CD.
The key is the bootable CD, and I'd like it if ALL of those were on the same bootable CD. Hence my interest in the EBCD.

"I've already (I think) wasted 100 bucks on an external USB drive."
Don't be too quick to write it off; if you find a method of loading the USB drivers so as to get access to that drive, then it will become really useful once again. And even if you don't, it is still useful, if rather a nuisance to access. And it does have the advantage of offering lots of space.
I'm assuming that this is a laptop and there's no space for a 2nd internal IDE HDD.

[Sylvander]

I have Knoppix on a CDRW disk and it works great and looks good; booted up 1st time and I came onto the PC Guide using its own copy of Firefox!
Vazooom!
I haven't yet figured out exactly how it works and what it can do.
It seems to run in a RAMdrive, loads all its own drivers and enables all the hardware [including USB?], but I didn't see it accessing [or able to manipulate] any other drives on the PC.
Seems like because it runs from a CD, it's trapped in its own little world disconnected from the greater environment of the other drives.
Perhaps I should study it more closely.

[FastLearner]

Thanks Sylvander! You've definitely given me some things to think about... Are you suggesting that Knoppix might be an easy way out of this?

[Sylvander]

"Are you suggesting that Knoppix might be an easy way out of this?"
I doubt it, but I may be wrong, need to explore it some more, previously I didn't see any way to manipulate the contents of other drives, but that may be because I don't know my way around in that environment. I'll take a look and get back ASAP.

[Sylvander]

See this http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread...823#post230823

[Sylvander]

I see no way of accessing the HDD from this.
There was a "Root Folder" with the FDD and the [folders on the] CD accessible.

You'll see from that thread that the method suggested for making image files involves using Linux and typed commands.
Too complex for me I'm afraid, I like to use a GUI and click on icons to get things done.

The EBCD looks to have potential.

[FastLearner]

Thanks for looking into that, sylvander. I think you're onto something with the EBCD...

[david eaton]

I downloaded Knoppix, and running it on my older Win98 machine I was able to access and manipulate files on the hard drive with no problems.
I don't know, as yet, if it can see NTFS partitions tho'.

[Sylvander]

Are you running it from a CD?
[Or is it installed on the HDD?]

Which Application is used to access the HDD?
I'd like to be able to do this using the OS booted from the CD.

[Fruss Tray Ted]

When I boot to my Knoppix cd, the partitions are all on the desktop and I just click on them to open them and do whatever you want from there.

What I have not figured how to do is to see the usb ports or any device connected to them. I can find no similar thing to 'My Computer' where the devices attached are usually displayed in Windows. Nor can I find anything like Device Manager.

[Sylvander]

I don't see anything on the "desktop" other than an image of a ceiling with a lit sign hanging from it saying "Knoppix in use".
Could my difficulty be caused by the fact that my HDD has DDO software installed on it?
There is a taskbar at the bottom of the screen with enormous numbers of strangely named programs accessible from it [most of them meaningless to me].

Probably I should come back here using Firefox from within Knoppix.

[Sylvander]

Back again using Firefox from within Knoppix 3.8 [running in a RAMdrive] booted from the CD.

I got:
Error - Kdesktop
The process for the file protocol Died unexpectedly.

Perhaps that's why I see no desktop?

What is Konqueror? Alternative web browser?

Will keep browsing.

[Sylvander]

Back again using Konqueror from within Knoppix.

This certainly supplies lots of progs!
K->System->Info Center only provides detailed info on all devices in the system. Doesn't allow the user to install drivers etc.

[Sylvander]

Used K->System->File Manager to access:
FDD : ok
CDROM : ok
HDD : not ok, Could not mount device. Could not determine the file system type, and none was specified.

I wonder if I could boot from the HDD, wait for DDO to load, choose to boot from FDD, boot from Startup floppy, run the Knoppix CD Autorun.exe?
Would that result in the DDO running bfore Knoppix loads and give access to the HDD?

[Sylvander]

Nope, that didn't work.

[david eaton]

It looks as if Knoppix cannot understand the MBR with DDO software in use. Unless the maker of the DDO software also make a Linux version

[Sylvander]

Yet another reason to have yet another try at eliminating DDO by installing an IDE controller.
Previous time [and the 1st time] I tried it the shop gave me a RAID controller and I made the mistake of removing the DDO BEFORE switching the drive over to the new controller card and it didn't work.
I'll try to work up to giving it another try.